Bloody Sunday 40th Anniversary..........

[Pickman's model]

the ability of pira to make a themselves a thorn in the side of the british isn't the same as having a high level of popular support in the nationalist community though. a lot of the opinion i'm reading seems to be suggesting a negative correlation.

you don't say what opinion you're basing this on, so it's hard to tell which sources you've looked at. however, the ira's ability to sustain a campaign for over 25 years speaks to a degree of support which is notable for its longevity, and for that support to be demonstrated in both a continuing ability to recruit and retain volunteers and to attract an increasing amount of political support - measured in council seats and at westminster elections - suggests that at the least a sizeable minority of the nationalist community supported the republican movement. have you looked at sluka's 1989 study 'hearts and minds, fish and water'?

 

[Casually Red]

which is no doubt why adams, mcguinness et al were flown to london for talks with the british government in 1972

the prison protests started after ciaran nugent went on the blanket after special category status was withdrawn in 1976. by that time there was a fuck of a lot of water under the bridge, and it's difficult to see how you can sustain the notion that 'there really wasn't any mass support for armed struggle until the prisoner protests'.

outside republican circles the population never gave a flying fuck when prisoner protests started . Those men rotted in obscurity for years . It wasnt until 5 years later when the second hungerstrike began that anything approaching mass support began manifesting itself .

Worth remembering too that in 1972 those provo/brit talks were a real stab in the back for the mass civil disobedience campaigns . The anti internment civil rights struggle was adamant that thered be no talks of any kind with the British government until internment without trial was ended . But the provos couldnt get into talks quick enough . The provos proved much more managable on that level , and eventually every other level too.

 

[Pickman's model]

outside republican circles the population never gave a flying fuck when prisoner protests started . Those men rotted in obscurity for years . It wasnt until 5 years later when the second hungerstrike began that anything approaching mass support began manifesting itself .

Worth remembering too that in 1972 those provo/brit talks were a real stab in the back for the mass civil disobedience campaigns . The anti internment civil rights struggle was adamant that thered be no talks of any kind with the British government until internment without trial was ended . But the provos couldnt get into talks quick enough . The provos proved much more managable on that level , and eventually every other level too.

very much so

 

[Idris2002]

Aaah...the United Kingdom city of Culture . Quite an acheivement for Martin McGuiness and all his hard work .

 

[toggle]

i'm reading Richard English's book atm, which seems to concur with what else I've read.I've got a bit more to go through, Mcallister's paper, plus a half dozen others, and a fair few books. as well as some documentds that sinn fein themselves put out during that period. Considering what I've got here, i doubt another study would make a lot of a difference.

and if you're measuring support through election success, then of course, that can only be done from the 80's onwards, when the decision was made to begin to contest elections. they clearly were able to engage with the community during the beginning of the 80's, although that level of support was dropping towards the end of the decade, IIRC i've got a peak by 1984.

what i'm talking about is a lack of mass support for armed republicanism prior to the prisioner protests. their support was certainly higher than in the 60's when the number of active IRA supporters was almost negligable in the north, but I'd seriously doubt their ability to have won elections on the scale they did in the early 80's before the hunger strikes, even had they ended their policies of political abstensionism at that time. they just did not have the level of support needed for that.

 

[Casually Red]

of course its shopped . He wont get a knighthood until he meets her in public .
This one isnt shopped though . The day he announced their surrender of weapons while honouring this fine upstanding international statesman.

 

[Pickman's model]

i'm reading Richard English's book atm, which seems to concur with what else I've read.I've got a bit more to go through, Mcallister's paper, plus a half dozen others, and a fair few books. as well as some documentds that sinn fein themselves put out during that period. Considering what I've got here, i doubt another study would make a lot of a difference.

and if you're measuring support through election success, then of course, that can only be done from the 80's onwards, when the decision was made to begin to contest elections. they clearly were able to engage with the community during the beginning of the 80's, although that level of support was dropping towards the end of the decade, IIRC i've got a peak by 1984.

what i'm talking about is a lack of mass support for armed republicanism prior to the prisioner protests. their support was certainly higher than in the 60's when the number of active IRA supporters was almost negligable in the north, but I'd seriously doubt their ability to have won elections on the scale they did in the early 80's before the hunger strikes, even had they ended their policies of political abstensionism at that time. they just did not have the level of support needed for that.

i don't have any books to hand at the moment, but ilardi in his article on ira operational intelligence says that the ira received a great deal of information - voluntarily - from the nationalist / republican community, while pretty much all the sources i can recall make the point that - for some reason - the ira received a great number of applications for membership in february of 1972. there was certainly water for the ira fish to swim in. and in places like west belfast, like derry and like south armagh i think it's fair to say there was high support for the ira, due to the successful propagation of the notion of the ira as defenders of the community. contrary to popular belief, there was no graffiti suggesting 'ira = i ran away', rather the provisional ira cultivated the image of the phoenix rising from the ashes of bombay street and events like bloody sunday, the falls curfew and operation motorman showed that as far as concrete resistance against the english and against the stormont the ira was broadly the only game in town.

 

[Casually Red]

i'm reading Richard English's book atm, which seems to concur with what else I've read.I've got a bit more to go through, Mcallister's paper, plus a half dozen others, and a fair few books. as well as some documentds that sinn fein themselves put out during that period. Considering what I've got here, i doubt another study would make a lot of a difference.

and if you're measuring support through election success, then of course, that can only be done from the 80's onwards, when the decision was made to begin to contest elections. they clearly were able to engage with the community during the beginning of the 80's, although that level of support was dropping towards the end of the decade, IIRC i've got a peak by 1984.

what i'm talking about is a lack of mass support for armed republicanism prior to the prisioner protests. their support was certainly higher than in the 60's when the number of active IRA supporters was almost negligable in the north, but I'd seriously doubt their ability to have won elections on the scale they did in the early 80's before the hunger strikes, even had they ended their policies of political abstensionism at that time. they just did not have the level of support needed for that.

the things chicken and egg . Their jump in electoral support derived primarily from the prison struggle . The election was what brought the prison struggle to the centre of public attention . In 1979 Adams ,as part of his long running personal feud with the Sinn Fein president Ruairi OBradaigh blocked any move to contest the European elections on a H Block ticket to highlight the prison situation . When again in 81 OBradaigh proposed Bobby Sands stand in the westminster election ,again Adams tried to block it . Although he was wrong footed on that occasion as it was immediately put to a vote at the fermanagh meeting before Adams had a chance to conspire against it internally . Overnight the H Blocks came to national and intenrational attention , something that could and should have happened years earlier .

After 1984 you had the anglo Irish agreement and a major increase in the political patronage afforded to the SDLP by both Westminster, Dublin and the Whitehouse, which saw them recoup lost ground and assume an appearance of being in the driving seat regarding influencing British policy . When in reality they were just pissing off the chagrinned unionists to a degree not seen since the early 70s , whilst being westminster stooges . Post Belfast agreement though it was sinn fein who took on this exact same role , when Blair , Clinton et al transferred their patronage to sinn fein and the SDLP vote began crumbling overnight as a result , despite having more seats than sinn fein . The Sinn Fein leadership had by this time though adopted the SDLPs political position and jettisoned the republican position .

 

[Casually Red]

what i'm talking about is a lack of mass support for armed republicanism prior to the prisioner protests. their support was certainly higher than in the 60's when the number of active IRA supporters was almost negligable in the north, but I'd seriously doubt their ability to have won elections on the scale they did in the early 80's before the hunger strikes, even had they ended their policies of political abstensionism at that time. they just did not have the level of support needed for that.

you may, or may not, be surprised to learn that in the 1950s sinn fein prisoner candidates won the fermanagh/ south Tyrone and East Tyrone westminster elections , while a few years later prisoner candidates in the south won 4 seats . All abstentionist .

 

[Bakunin]

you may, or may not, be surprised to learn that in the 1950s sinn fein prisoner candidates won the fermanagh/ south Tyrone and East Tyrone westminster elections , while a few years later prisoner candidates in the south won 4 seats . All abstentionist .

toggle posting;

thankyou. i do need to look that up.

i am working on college stuff on sinn fein right now and i am very, very appreciative of your insight.

 

[Pickman's model]

toggle posting;

thankyou. i do need to look that up.

i am working on college stuff on sinn fein right now and i am very, very appreciative of your insight.

if you're working on college stuff about sf you ought to have a look at sluka, as it is a study of support for the ira and inla in belfast's divis flats.

 

[Bakunin]

i don't have any books to hand at the moment, but ilardi in his article on ira operational intelligence says that the ira received a great deal of information - voluntarily - from the nationalist / republican community, while pretty much all the sources i can recall make the point that - for some reason - the ira received a great number of applications for membership in february of 1972. there was certainly water for the ira fish to swim in. and in places like west belfast, like derry and like south armagh i think it's fair to say there was high support for the ira, due to the successful propagation of the notion of the ira as defenders of the community. contrary to popular belief, there was no graffiti suggesting 'ira = i ran away', rather the provisional ira cultivated the image of the phoenix rising from the ashes of bombay street and events like bloody sunday, the falls curfew and operation motorman showed that as far as concrete resistance against the english and against the stormont the ira was broadly the only game in town.

i'm certainlly not claiming there was no support in the 70's, simply tht it wasn't anything like the level they got by 84, mainly due to the support after sands election. I'm currently working on analysing why electoral support dropped after that.

the 'i ran away' seems to be fairly well considered to be true though, along with the analysis that there was no effective republican movement in parts of the 60's.

 

[Bakunin]

if you're working on college stuff about sf you ought to have a look at sluka, as it is a study of support for the ira and inla in belfast's divis flats.

there really is a limit to what levels of detail i can go into though. I'm lookng more at levels of voter support for sinn fein than anything else. tbh, i'm writing an essay, not a dissertation.

 

[Bakunin]

the things chicken and egg . Their jump in electoral support derived primarily from the prison struggle . The election was what brought the prison struggle to the centre of public attention . In 1979 Adams ,as part of his long running personal feud with the Sinn Fein president Ruairi OBradaigh blocked any move to contest the European elections on a H Block ticket to highlight the prison situation . When again in 81 OBradaigh proposed Bobby Sands stand in the westminster election ,again Adams tried to block it . Although he was wrong footed on that occasion as it was immediately put to a vote at the fermanagh meeting before Adams had a chance to conspire against it internally . Overnight the H Blocks came to national and intenrational attention , something that could and should have happened years earlier .

when i've read more about this, i will get back to you. I do know there was conflict between adams and Obradeigh, but hadn't yet covered the details.

 

[Pickman's model]

i'm certainlly not claiming there was no support in the 70's, simply tht it wasn't anything like the level they got by 84, mainly due to the support after sands election. I'm currently working on analysing why electoral support dropped after that.

the 'i ran away' seems to be fairly well considered to be true though, along with the analysis that there was no effective republican movement in parts of the 60's.

you've obviously not seen the article in history ireland from three or four years back where its genealogy is traced to one partial witness. isn't it strange how there's no photographs of this graffiti we're told was seen in lots of places. can you find anyone who saw it? does anyone mention actually seeing it?

 

[Red Storm]

if you're working on college stuff about sf you ought to have a look at sluka, as it is a study of support for the ira and inla in belfast's divis flats.

That looks pretty mint. Shame its so expensive on Amazon! My uni library doesn't have it either.

 

[Pickman's model]

yeh, brian hanley's article 'i ran away'? the ira and 1969, in history ireland, july/august 2009

 

[Pickman's model]

That looks pretty mint. Shame its so expensive on Amazon! My uni library doesn't have it either.

got it in a remainder shop in 1995, it's pretty good though 'ethnographic'

 

[N_igma]

My grandad polled 21,696 for Unity in 1970.

 

[Deareg]

My grandad polled 21,696 for Unity in 1970.

From 4,000 different voters too.

 

[Pickman's model]

My grandad polled 21,696 for Unity in 1970.

yes? down in armagh? sadly he only got 1,364 in 1974

 

[N_igma]

yes? down in armagh? sadly he only got 1,364 in 1974

Yeh that's my grandad

 

[Bakunin]

yeh, brian hanley's article 'i ran away'? the ira and 1969, in history ireland, july/august 2009

crap, i'm not finding that online

 

[Idris2002]

got it in a remainder shop in 1995, it's pretty good though 'ethnographic'

He says that as if it was a bad thing. What do you think of Allen Feldman's work?

 

[alsoknownas]

Thing about this mural, it seems to me (just a supposition) that some parts of the community wanted to do a forward-looking optimistic mural, and then someone else came along and insisted on politicizing it.

 

[Idris2002]

It's Free Derry corner. It's inherently political. The last time I saw was on the 40th anniversary of Che Guevara's death, so it was surrounded by murals of the martyred revolutionary. There was also a case where one person painted it red, to emphasise the need for a socialist aspect to republicanism.

Of course, we should beware of imitations:

 

[Pickman's model]

crap, i'm not finding that online

a swift trip to the library and the submission of an interlibrary loan form will do the trick. or have a look on copac to see which nearby institutions stock it.

 

[Pickman's model]

He says that as if it was a bad thing. What do you think of Allen Feldman's work?

i say that because when i read it i wasn't so familiar with the jargon of social sciences as i have subsequently had the good fortune to become. formations of violence is pretty good, very interesting.

 

[Idris2002]

It's interesting, but problematic. Like a lot of post-modernist American anthropologists, he reproduces a lot of the errors of the old Culture and Personality school. He was also really patronising to a friend of mine, who shall remain nameless.

 

[Casually Red]

you've obviously not seen the article in history ireland from three or four years back where its genealogy is traced to one partial witness. isn't it strange how there's no photographs of this graffiti we're told was seen in lots of places. can you find anyone who saw it? does anyone mention actually seeing it?

personally I think its an apocryphal tale . Irish republican history is littered with them ..the instances were only one guy ever saw or heard this outlandish occurence that nobody else seemed to notice or remember or be present when it happened.

A couple of others that leap to mind are James Connolly supposedly telling his men as they marched to the GPO to hold onto their rifles as they might need them to shoot the Irish volunteers later....apparently only one guy actually heard this frankly treacherous, bonkers and bizzare outburst .

And that Dev quote at the beginning of the Michael Collins film ,

It is my considered opinion that in the fullness of time history will record the greatness of Michael Collins and it will be recorded at my expense.

again , apparently everyone else was struck deaf at the time and only one guy actually heard it . Relating the tale after Dev was dead of course , just as with Connolly .

Remember as regards the ran away graffitti this was supposed to be plastered accrosss the Falls road according to the myth . But Brian Hanley can only just about find one supposed sort of witness to it .