BBC - Owen Jones

[Firky]

Twitter, the saber of the working class left. Godspeed, Sol and take this saber.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Hang on, what about C.L.A.S.S. - for whom Jones is policy adviser? And the Coalition of Resistance, on whose front page a video of Jones appears?

CLASS is really Unite outsourcing their policy department and looking for work from a couple of other unions it is deeply wedded to Labour.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Twitter, the saber of the working class left. Godspeed, Sol and take this saber.

Well, it was alright for you until it made you go all cross. Yeah, it's not great but there's a fair chance of getting him to hear. He won't listen, though.

(It's Ess-sun-aye", by the way, not Sol, for REASONS.

 

[sihhi]

If you mean what subject - being McDonnell's aide while "struggling for an anwser"
If you mean what platform - Twitter.

Only asking cos I'm going to use almost your exact words, like.

My guess he would say

1 He was only a parliamentary researcher, just a job, everyone needs to make a living under capitalism (technically true). It's only my suspicion that he was by tacit agreement with McDonnell a youth operative on behalf of the whole McDonnell approach within the lower TU bureacracy and the internet bloggers.

2 Suggest why you aren't out there working against cuts instead of tweeting him, making you the clown and he the smart practical man of reason.

In all honesty, bubble is bubble, via twitter you won't change OJ's opinion and you won't 'reach' any of his 75K followers to change theirs, challenge his position in an open public meeting appealing to the interests of the audience - against their doing the legwork for a party structure that will only abuse them.

The Labour Left did immense but tiring work in 1979-1992 for the Labour Party as it suffered from the Callaghan legacy, the SDP split etc - virtually all of it for keeping alive the party drawing people from other currents and ideas (black, womens and green movements). The Party was able to reorganise to shaft its Left and the wider population 1992 onwards.

The phenomenon of 'Left revitalisation' of social democracy when out of power happens time and time again - a number of the people in Syriza now were in Pasok in the past against ND, the SPD did it with the anti-nuclear movement in the 80s, Mitterand did it massively with the Trotskyists who worked for a SFIO-PCF alliance in the 1970s.

There's probably a case to be made for entrism into social democratic/populist parties in circumstances if open organisation on non-party lines is not tolerated at all and leads to immediate arrest/seizure of resources.
In EU countries now entrism into or working for the return of social democratic parties is doing the work so that others benefit.

 

[Steel Icarus]

CLASS is really Unite outsourcing their policy department and looking for work from a couple of other unions it is deeply wedded to Labour.

Well, quite, and it's another thing which Owen is involved in among the many that he nevertheless complains about (no coherent unified movement etc)

 

[sihhi]

Well, quite, and it's another thing which Owen is involved in among the many that he nevertheless complains about (no coherent unified movement etc)

He will reply the movement isn't unified (which it isn't) and CLASS is just for research/analysis purposes.

In many respects, the LRC that accepts Labour Party members and non-members alike just like the SWP's RTW, but as OJ probably understands is too fixated on Labour internal issues.

I WAS interested to read Martin Jenkins's letter (M Star December 5) concerning the launch of Merseyside Labour Representation Committee.

He is right to point out the deplorable state of the Labour Party leadership, especially in light of recent events.

Congratulations on the launch of Merseyside LRC from all of us in London LRC. The campaigning work of the LRC is a positive step forward for the left within the Labour Party.

The LRC conference in November was a real turning point for the Labour left. Despite two major setbacks, one being not able to get enough MPs to place John McDonnell on the ballet, the other the loss of contemporary motions at future party conferences, the mood is one of confidence.

Greater London LRC had its launch meeting in October. It is holding meetings on at least a quarterly basis to link up constituencies, trade unions and campaigns. The next meeting is in late January.

The McDonnell campaign has brought new life into the Labour left, particularly among a younger generation. We will continue to campaign through the LRC on policies worth fighting for to return our party back to its roots. The next big fight is to stop state funding for parties, which is a smokescreen to break the union link.

MICK GILGUNN Islington LRC

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/54186

I think what OJ is saying in the piece is 'there are too many people outside the LP+LRC we need to make them work towards our own ends without having them as members'

 

[Random]

My guess he would say

1 He was only a parliamentary researcher, just a job, everyone needs to make a living under capitalism (technically true). It's only my suspicion that he was by tacit agreement with McDonnell a youth operative on behalf of the whole McDonnell approach within the lower TU bureacracy and the internet bloggers.

When has being a parliamentary researcher ever been just a job? It's always involved being a paid political activist, hasn't it?

 

[articul8]

Unsurprisingly I think it's a very good piece - he's really callling for some sort of organisational expression to the kind of space Red Pepper occupies at the level of ideas. Which gets beyond the "work inside/outside Labour dilemma, accepting that people differ about the opportunities of lack thereof when it comes to that field, but actually organises something over and beyond that division over electoral tactics to work together on building a consensus around alternatives and bring groups like UNITE and LRC into closer co-operation and dialogue with people like PCS, Greens, groups like uncut/occupy, DPAC and others.

 

[Random]

Unsurprisingly I think it's a very good piece - he's really callling for some sort of organisational expression to the kind of space Red Pepper occupies at the level of ideas.

I am surprised that you'd call it "very good", actually. I would have thought you'd at least see the problems in the fact that his "call" is totally vague and impossible to properly implement, and that it ignores the reasons why no such network exists already. So you're saying you're simply smiling because it looks like he's wanting to set up something for "our kind of people"?

 

[Steel Icarus]

Unsurprisingly I think it's a very good piece

- he's really callling for some sort of organisational expression to the kind of space Red Pepper occupies at the level of ideas. Which gets beyond the "work inside/outside Labour dilemma, accepting that people differ about the opportunities of lack thereof when it comes to that field, but actually organises something over and beyond that division over electoral tactics to work together on building a consensus around alternatives and bring groups like UNITE and LRC into closer co-operation and dialogue with people like PCS, Greens, groups like uncut/occupy, DPAC and others.

But to what end? To move Labour leftwards. Like they haven't in decades.

 

[Random]

Can someone please start a fire on a hilltop, and smoke-signal to UkUncut that the Labourite vampires are coming for them, after failing with the LRC?

 

[butchersapron]

Can someone please start a fire on a hilltop, and smoke-signal to UkUncut that the Labourite vampires are coming for them, after failing with the LRC?

The labour interns have been in there from the very start.

 

[frogwoman]

Unsurprisingly I think it's a very good piece - he's really callling for some sort of organisational expression to the kind of space Red Pepper occupies at the level of ideas. Which gets beyond the "work inside/outside Labour dilemma, accepting that people differ about the opportunities of lack thereof when it comes to that field, but actually organises something over and beyond that division over electoral tactics to work together on building a consensus around alternatives and bring groups like UNITE and LRC into closer co-operation and dialogue with people like PCS, Greens, groups like uncut/occupy, DPAC and others.

i admire the fact you're so tenacious articul8 but do you not see that it is often the case that instead of people like this changing party/institutional stuctures it is usually the other way round, these structures and the social circles they end up going into (like owen jones for example and his bubble mates) usually end up changing them

 

[articul8]

i admire the fact you're so tenacious articul8 but do you not see that it is often the case that instead of people like this changing party/institutional stuctures it is usually the other way round, these structures and the social circles they end up going into (like owen jones for example and his bubble mates) usually end up changing them

It's a danger, certainly - but I don't see it being inevitable.

 

[articul8]

But to what end? To move Labour leftwards. Like they haven't in decades.

No it shouldn't assume or discount the possibility of this - but it would create some kind of external pressure for change by organising in civil society more broadly than the traditional labour movement has been able to.

 

[smokedout]

Unsurprisingly I think it's a very good piece - he's really callling for some sort of organisational expression to the kind of space Red Pepper occupies at the level of ideas. Which gets beyond the "work inside/outside Labour dilemma, accepting that people differ about the opportunities of lack thereof when it comes to that field, but actually organises something over and beyond that division over electoral tactics to work together on building a consensus around alternatives and bring groups like UNITE and LRC into closer co-operation and dialogue with people like PCS, Greens, groups like uncut/occupy, DPAC and others.

you really have no idea the level of contempt that many people in those latter groups hold for the labour party do you

 

[Random]

No it shouldn't assume or discount the possibility of this - but it would create some kind of external pressure for change by organising in civil society more broadly than the traditional labour movement has been able to.

Rounding up even more people into the Labour at Any Cost team

 

[articul8]

you really have no idea the level of contempt that many people in those latter groups hold for the labour party do you

I understand the contempt for New Labour very well. I doubt those groups would have the same contempt for a McDonnell or a Corbyn.

 

[butchersapron]

I understand the contempt for New Labour very well. I doubt those groups would have the same contempt for a McDonnell or a Corbyn.

I reckon the labour leadership that all this bollocks is supposed to put pressure on would. Don't you?

 

[Random]

it would create some kind of external pressure for change by organising in civil society more broadly than the traditional labour movement has been able to.

Very similar vagueness to Jones' own article. What does this mean? Actually putting in the work yourself, delivering thousands of leaflets, running stalls, basing campaigns on working class people's needs? Or are you really sayingm let's set up some great summit meetings including representatives from all kinds of tenants' associations, along with some Occupy conspiraloons and Labour lefts?

because the main task is to actually rebuild this "civil society"; by which I mean rebuilding working class strength.

 

[butchersapron]

Very similar vagueness to Jones' own article. What does this mean? Actually putting in the work yourself, delivering thousands of leaflets, running stalls, basing campaigns on working class people's needs? Or are you really sayingm let's set up some great summit meetings including representatives from all kinds of tenants' associations, along with some Occupy conspiraloons and Labour lefts?

because the main task is to actually rebuild this "civil society"; by which I mean rebuilding working class strength.

He means doing some stuff then getting labour lefts to publicly head it - a spear into the parties side.

 

[frogwoman]

It's a danger, certainly - but I don't see it being inevitable.

It's not inevitable no but i had the impression that (correct me if I'm wrong) a parliamentary researcher worked for an MP and as part of their work they were expected to have political stances and party allegiances which were similar to them because the parliamentary research would support what the MP said in parliament and in committees etc

correct me if i am wrong but that is the impression I got of the role.

and if you're mixing in that sort of social environment you are likely to become a bit insulated from the world outside, its not necessarily a bad thing it's normal, it's like most people assume that other people have similar living standards etc to what they do

 

[Random]

He means doing some stuff then getting labour lefts to publicly head it - a spear into the parties side.

And the LP will be all like, fuck you City of London, we've got articul8 and Jones and their Network to keep us warm at night now!

 

[Random]

i admire the fact you're so tenacious articul8 but do you not see that it is often the case that instead of people like this changing party/institutional stuctures it is usually the other way round, these structures and the social circles they end up going into (like owen jones for example and his bubble mates) usually end up changing them

End up?

 

[DotCommunist]

subbing furiously for the Morning Star- wait no, wrong person

 

[frogwoman]

End up?

I mean that somebody might go into the labour party or whatever with the intention of changing it but the higher up they go the more the party will end up changing them

 

[Random]

I mean that somebody might go into the labour party or whatever with the intention of changing it but the higher up they go the more the party will end up changing them

Sorry for my brusque and lazy post. I mean that OJ, and articul8 and their like are already changed by their political careers - and that they're embracing that change; they are public political careerists. The Labour political beast is dear to their hearts. There's no core of working class free socialism that's being compromised.

 

[articul8]

Very similar vagueness to Jones' own article. What does this mean? Actually putting in the work yourself, delivering thousands of leaflets, running stalls, basing campaigns on working class people's needs? Or are you really sayingm let's set up some great summit meetings including representatives from all kinds of tenants' associations, along with some Occupy conspiraloons and Labour lefts?

because the main task is to actually rebuild this "civil society"; by which I mean rebuilding working class strength.

It's about overcoming the division which has historically seen the unions leave "political" (for which read electoral) activity to the party, whilst they get on with "industrial" (predominantly wage-bargaining) issues. UNITE's own internal structure reflects this - it's political committees about LP connected work - the other stuff (including community organising) happens elsewhere, and is allowed and encouraged only insofar as it is compatible with the general steer given by the political committees. Hence at some levels UNITE officials have been running around telling Labour councillors to vote for cuts!

I'd like to see unions take on a more directly political role - by bracketing altogether (for the time being) the quetion of electoral alignments - and working together with other forces, like non-aligned unions, tenants and residents assocs, community groups, pensioners groups, students, and - yes - beginning to rebuild indepedent working class organisation and capacity.

 

[articul8]

Sorry for my brusque and lazy post. I mean that OJ, and articul8 and their like are already changed by their political careers - and that they're embracing that change; they are public political careerists. The Labour political beast is dear to their hearts. There's no core of working class free socialism that's being compromised.

"working class free socialism" - who'd want a socialism that was working class free (other than the Webbs - but don't get me started on them)?

 

[Random]

"working class free socialism" - who'd want a socialism that was working class free (other than the Webbs - but don't get me started on them)?

Independent/self organised socialism, then