Barking: Greens splitting anti-BNP vote

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Line on - wrong way round.

Not being funny but the rest is just saying they need to be opposed politically isn't it? Am i missing something? |Or is is that it must be a party that you're emphasing?

Wrong way round how?

Im not saying it MUST be a party, but a party seems to be the best fit to defeating another party at the ballot box. There are non party aspects to this, but they are more peripheral.

 

[Pickman's model]

so in a barking context (and how appropriate that is) you think people should vote for the paedos' friend margaret hodge in preference to nick griffin?

hodge is to blame for bigging up the bnp at every fucking opportunity, giving them credibility.

 

[butchersapron]

Wrong way round how?

Im not saying it MUST be a party, but a party seems to be the best fit to defeating another party at the ballot box. There are non party aspects to this, but they are more peripheral.

The BNP gain chiefly gain any "legitimacy" and mandate via the ballot box. Therefore the most direct way of defeating them is at the ballot box.

On a local level it doesn't - it reflects and then magnifies pre-existing legitimacy.

 

[butchersapron]

the incumbent party and the BNP will both have national profiles. Local community work can be important and valuable but it won't have the same sense that it supporting it represents a national intervention.

Do you mean in Braking? I think national intervention by one party is driving people into the arms of the other.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I guess a non party group could back a party or candidate in a specific instance. This is certainly preferable to the UAF approach of "dont vote fascist" followed by "well, who do we vote for" followed by "er....erm"

We both know from previous spats that in many many cases this is a very nasty Labour Party. We need to have an alternative to an unpopular councillor that isnt fascist. ie "dont vote fascist" ... "well who do we vote for"..."well...er...Labour have the best chance"...."fuck that, they are in power and they are shits"..."well if you dont like Labour then fair enough, the LDs are running a good campaign too" etc.

The point being that the LDs (in this case) would NEED to be running a good campaign and doing the year round stuff. But at a City / Borough level this may well not be facilitated because they have other strategic priorities.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Do you mean in Braking? I think national intervention by one party is driving people into the arms of the other.

The last few posts have not been about Barking, but general. Sorry if that's off-topic. I'm dead busy at the mo and not really paying too much attention to all aspects of threads.

 

[newbie]

Part of their problem is that they've exclusively focused on electoral politics - that's all they are, that's all they're designed to be, and that their focus is designed on succeeding thorough the wider electoral system - i.e a change of electoral system through being king-makers in a hung parliament. Not really anything to with those who adopt the 'IWCA model' (the idea of street politics of course being old as the hills) though. Different content.

sure, different content, I see the distinction. But any group that spends their time putting things on agendas in the hope that someone will notice them will suffer similar marginalisation. Just as any group that identifies immediate local issues as a route to political influence will discover the limits of the approach.

But this thread is about a very specific marginal, and what may or may not apply elsewhere has to be seen in that context. Whatever effort you and your allies, or the Greens, put in to the constituency between now and May, building presumably on what's gone before, won't amount to an electoral victory. One of two candidates will win. The political groundwork will continue afterwards. What victory would you see as providing the most fertile backdrop for that continuing work, Hodge or Griffin?

 

[butchersapron]

I guess a non party group could back a party or candidate in a specific instance. This is certainly preferable to the UAF approach of "dont vote fascist" followed by "well, who do we vote for" followed by "er....erm"

We both know from previous spats that in many many cases this is a very nasty Labour Party. We need to have an alternative to an unpopular councillor that isnt fascist. ie "dont vote fascist" ... "well who do we vote for"..."well...er...Labour have the best chance"...."fuck that, they are in power and they are shits"..."well if you dont like Labour then fair enough, the LDs are running a good campaign too" etc.

The point being that the LDs (in this case) would NEED to be running a good campaign and doing the year round stuff. But at a City / Borough level this may well not be facilitated because they have other strategic priorities.

You're electoralising all community politics.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I'm thinking more of traditionally Labour areas in the North of England where the fascists have made moderate gains.

 

[butchersapron]

sure, different content, I see the distinction. But any group that spends their time putting things on agendas in the hope that someone will notice them will suffer similar marginalisation. Just as any group that identifies immediate local issues as a route to political influence will discover the limits of the approach.

But this thread is about a very specific marginal, and what may or may not apply elsewhere has to be seen in that context. Whatever effort you and your allies, or the Greens, put in to the constituency between now and May, building presumably on what's gone before, won't amount to an electoral victory. One of two candidates will win. The political groundwork will continue afterwards. What victory would you see as providing the most fertile backdrop for that continuing work, Hodge or Griffin?

Griffin

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

You're electoralising all community politics.

No I'm not. But elections are clearly central to keeping fascists out of power or booting them out of power, because elections is how they get in.

 

[butchersapron]

No I'm not. But elections are clearly central to keeping fascists out of power or booting them out of power, because elections is how they get in.

No it's not - it's really not.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Butchers, if IWCA is a good model (I think broadly that it is), how would you account for it not taking off more than it has?

 

[butchersapron]

Butchers, if IWCA is a good model (I think broadly that it is), how would you account for it not taking off more than it has?

It has taken off -the BNP have 2 MEPs and 50+ councillors.

 

[newbie]

Griffin

and that would be in the shor/medium/longterm interests of all the people living in the area?

or simply a way of advancing your own political objectives?

 

[butchersapron]

and that would be in the shor/medium/longterm interests of all the people living in the area?

or simply a way of advancing your own political objectives?

I didn't call for a Griffin vote - i've gone put of my way to rubbish the idea that there's a labour /griffin head to head. It isn't - it's a safe labour seat.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

No it's not - it's really not.

If that's what you meant by me being the wrong way round - I do get the point that an electoral victory grows out of community dynamics. However, the electoral victory is somewhat totemic to say the least. Fascist electoral victories feed a great deal into those dynamics - there is a symbiotic relationship but the election is still pretty key.

If Griffin is hoofed out in 2014 there's no denying that it will be a huge bodyblow for fascism and race-tainted politics.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

It has taken off -the BNP have 2 MEPs and 50+ councillors.

Good answer. What about the anti-fascist equivalent - why hasnt that taken off?

 

[tbaldwin]

It has taken off -the BNP have 2 MEPs and 50+ councillors.

If you think that ( and IWCA Oxford) is`the way forwards why dont you try it where you live?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I guess an answer to my above question might include a number of Independents, Greens etc.

The problem is that the majority of such party activists wont be campaigning in fascist danger spots.

Respect are the best example of a party that might, but there's no hiding how small they are or the flimsiness of the "might" in that statement.

 

[butchersapron]

Good answer. What about the anti-fascist equivalent - why hasnt that taken off?

There's people organising on this basis all over the country, there always has been, there's rarely been the will/need to centralise them into anything else though, they might be based around the energies of one individual or one issue - that's the first basic starting point - they have been successful on their own terms, maybe not on those of the three main parties or the lesser ones though. That's the massive subjective voluntarist point of this - it's pretty central.

 

[newbie]

I know you didn't, I'm not intending to suggest you did.

equally, you didn't call for the only vote that ensures he won't win, and you identified that your own political objectives might flourish if he does.

that's what makes the choice for the electors of Barking particularly stark. The rest of us have the luxury of being able to chatter on the internet secure in the knowledge that our choice is nothing like to important.

 

[articul8]

There's people organising on this basis all over the country, there always has been, there's rarely been the will/need to centralise them into anything else though, they might be based around the energies of one individual or one issue - that's the first basic starting point - they have been successful on their own terms, maybe not on those of the three main parties or the lesser ones though. That's the massive subjective voluntarist point of this - it's pretty central.

No - there have been responses, some of them relatively effective - but people vote BNP not just because of the local circumstances but because it's a broader "fuck you" to the national political leadership. If the BNP are to be contained, there has to be an effective basis on which local BNP challenges can be opposed by a national alternative.

 

[butchersapron]

eh?

 

[articul8]

local-anti independent community politics needs to move from localised instances towards a national movement if it is to fight the BNP on a broader front

 

[butchersapron]

I didn't mention fighting the BNP.

Seriously - stick with the thread or don't. Don't dip in like this.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

There's people organising on this basis all over the country, there always has been, there's rarely been the will/need to centralise them into anything else though, they might be based around the energies of one individual or one issue - that's the first basic starting point - they have been successful on their own terms, maybe not on those of the three main parties or the lesser ones though. That's the massive subjective voluntarist point of this - it's pretty central.

I can think of quite a few such instances, built around issues like housing or public services but I'm not sure they are ultimately as effective as a party in dealing with a party or neccessarily happening in the worrying areas.

In terms of the ballot box, the political party scene is surely categorically central regardless of your other important points.

 

[butchersapron]

But i didn't mention 'in terms of the ballot box'. What's going on?

 

[articul8]

Politics never just begins with the immediately concrete. It is always mediated by the context in which it is situated (in this case the ballot box, the BNP etc.)

 

[The Black Hand]

Yes of course anyone trying this is metaphorically running into a gale, no one said it would be easy, but if that gale is threatening to blow you off the cliff then...

Exactly what part of the IWCA approach do you see as worthless outside of Oxford - genuine concerns about w/c concerns and action on them? Concern with anti-social behaviour? Ending m/c domination of public resources? What of this do you oppose - what of it is non-transferable outside of oxford?

It has had 15 years to transfer and has shown NO SIGNS of doing so. Why? It's just another ultra left sect as Baldwin indicated. All it is, is all it was 15 years ago cos of the utter lack of ambition to do something different. Instead they argued themselves into an ultra left corner that has showed no sign of political growth.