Barking: Greens splitting anti-BNP vote

[articul8]

They are standing a candidate

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=5249

 

[Bajie]

Seems the wrong way to approach it (having a go at this small green party), surely the better way to give the pro-BNP voters a different option to the BNP?

 

[butchersapron]

They're entirely 100% right to do so - their 500 votes are likely to be meaningless - and setting a precedent of not holding hands with labour everytime it gets hot is worth far more than rallying behind some millionaire child-abuse covering up scumbag.

 

[articul8]

The reality is that Green Party has little appeal to the BNP inclined demographic.

 

[articul8]

They're entirely 100% right to do so - their 500 votes are likely to be meaningless - and setting a precedent of not holding hands with labour everytime it gets hot is worth far more than rallying behind some millionaire child-abuse covering up scumbag.

I've no time for Hodge, or for her politics. But a Griffin victory would be a major propaganga coup - and 500 votes taken off Labour could make that a possibility.

 

[butchersapron]

500 votes isn't going to decide this one, the greens were never king or queen makers here. if we're so timid in our politics that we go running back to labour every single time then maybe a BNP MP will provide the wake-up call the broad left needs and deserves. Not that griffin will get in, the increase in turnout will make sure of that. Panton got the same vote as the greens last time running on an explicitly anti-hodge campaign due to her child-abuse cover ups - maybe we should also be calling for him or any other concerned independents not to stand again as well? 12 weeks to the election the dynamic of this sort of politics is already making its effects clear.

 

[Sadken]

I will be amazed if the BNP don't get in. They are campaigning FAR more than any other party; probably once a fortnight they pictch up outside the place I go and get my sandwiches - haven't seen anyone else from any of the other parties and this just reinforces the "they don't care about you, WE do" idea the BNP are trying to surf into parliament. And it's working. And it's fucking stupid and I am bringing in pasta pots to lunch these days.

 

[articul8]

maybe a BNP MP will provide the wake-up call the broad left needs and deserves.

That is a very complacent attitude which ignores the effects that a BNP victory would have on race relations across London and beyond.

I'd agree that a Labour vote is no solution to the long-term growth of the far right. But neither is putting up a hopeless candidate to take a handful of votes.

 

[glenquagmire]

As someone who has little time for the Greens and would vote for the "millionaire child-abuse covering up scumbag" if I lived there (and might go campaigning for her), I can't help wondering what the point of the Green Party would be if they ran off scared every time it looked like they might be decisive in swinging an election to the right.

 

[Bajie]

The reality is that Green Party has little appeal to the BNP inclined demographic.

Yes I know, that is not what I am saying.

 

[butchersapron]

That is a very complacent attitude which ignores the effects that a BNP victory would have on race relations across London and beyond.

I'd agree that a Labour vote is no solution to the long-term growth of the far right. But neither is putting up a hopeless candidate to take a handful of votes.

The complacency is just as much on the other side i'm sorry to say - you've just provided a rationale for voting labour tory or lib-dem anywhere the BNP stands ever -or, for never not voting labour at all

If you're not going to stand against labour today in these conditions then when? When is this independent organisation supposed to appear? Because next time it may be vote labour to get rid of the tories, they're marginally better, followed by, vote labour to keep the tories out, they're marginally better. Cycle sof abuse need to be stopped at some point.

 

[butchersapron]

As someone who has little time for the Greens and would vote for the "millionaire child-abuse covering up scumbag" if I lived there (and might go campaigning for her), I can't help wondering what the point of the Green Party would be if they ran off scared every time it looked like they might be decisive in swinging an election to the right.

... yep extend that logic to all left of labour groups and the logic of the argument and you've no justification for their existence as electoral bodies whatsoever.

I'd be interested to hear what the local parties arguments were.

 

[JimPage]

As to Barking, Labour are also going to be under pressure from the Christian Party-who are camapaigning, it seems, solely among the Black churches in the area attended by recent BME migrants to the area

Labour's vote here is not as solid as people think

On another site, have asked a prominent Green whether this decision can be over- ruled, and unfortunately, the answer is no

 

[butchersapron]

As to Barking, Labour are also going to be under pressure from the Christian Party-who are camapaigning, it seems, solely among the Black churches in the area attended by recent BME migrants to the area

Labour's vote here is not as solid as people think

It's a safe seat in reality - the boundary changes actually make it better for labour - their lead over the tories increases from 9000 to 1100. The BNP will need to increase their vote by at least 10000 (i.e by 200%), and that's without all the non-BNP voters voting for labour, and the tories potentially taking votes off the BNP as the national picture make sit look like that vote would wight more than a BNP vote.

 

[articul8]

If you're not going to stand against labour today in these conditions then when? When is this independent organisation supposed to appear? Because next time it may be vote labour to get rid of the tories, they're marginally better, followed by, vote labour to keep the tories out, they're marginally better. Cycle sof abuse need to be stopped at some point.

I accept there's something of a vicious circle at the moment - but futile attempts to break out that only aid the BNP's immediate progress are hardly to be recommended.

The electoral system is one major structural factor that keeps the vicious circle in place - under a system where preferences can transfer (even the AV system being debated today) there would be much less impediment in terms of smaller parties standing.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Butchers has this one down. Agree with pretty much everything he's said above...

 

[newbie]

... yep extend that logic to all left of labour groups and the logic of the argument and you've no justification for their existence as electoral bodies whatsoever.

well there's no real justification in terms of seats, public acclaim or anything else much. They can influence the debate a bit perhaps, but very little. What other justification is there?

 

[butchersapron]

well there's no real justification in terms of seats, public acclaim or anything else much. They can influence the debate a bit perhaps, but very little. What other justification is there?

For what? Existing or not existing?

 

[newbie]

for existing

 

[articul8]

It's a safe seat in reality - the boundary changes actually make it better for labour - their lead over the tories increases from 9000 to 1100. The BNP will need to increase their vote by at least 10000 (i.e by 200%), and that's without all the non-BNP voters voting for labour, and the tories potentially taking votes off the BNP as the national picture make sit look like that vote would wight more than a BNP vote.

It's difficult to read across from the notional majorities - The kinds of Labour voters who voted for Cruddas in Dagenham aren't necessarily going to transfer automatically to Hodge. How "firm" are the Tory voters going to be? Will there be a UKIP or an English Democrat standing etc.

Will HNH increase turnout, and by enough to compensate for disillusioned Lab voters not going? Agree that Lab still favourite but not by enough to get complacent

 

[articul8]

And I'm not saying that no-one should ever challenge Labour when the BNP are in contention. But Griffin is not just any BNP candidate.

 

[butchersapron]

for existing

Well none if they're not winning seats if that's what they've based their long term strategy around - not unless they're doing some pretty bloody useful extra-electoral activity.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

If everybody gets behind Hodge I'm sure she'll be delighted at the ringing endorsement that the electorate have given both her and New Labour.

Louis MacNeice

 

[articul8]

Some people give the impression of hoping for a BNP victory, in order that it will vindicate their critique of NL.

 

[butchersapron]

Some people give the impression of hoping for a BNP victory, in order that it will vindicate their critique of NL.

Not a sensible nor helpful comment.

 

[newbie]

Left of Labour parties have won trivial numbers of seats over recent decades, so I think we're agreeing that there's little to justify them electorally.

 

[articul8]

Not a sensible nor helpful comment.

not accurate? so you are hoping Hodge wins?

 

[butchersapron]

Did i say not accurate? And you explicitly meant it was me hoping the BNP wins then? Let's be clear? No, i hope the green wins. What i hope for is pretty irrelevant.

 

[articul8]

Not just you - but the logic of the system means that voters are effectively choosing between electing Griffin and electing Hodge.

Of these, which is your preferred outcome?

 

[butchersapron]

Please don't play these insultingly childish games with me. Forcing someone to choose between the BNP and Labour - this is a 15 years olds debating trick - and it has very little to do with whether organisations other than the labour party should stand when the BNP are also standing.