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    Lazy Llama

Aug 27-Sept 2 Climate Camp returns to London

Class as a tool of radical social analysis has roughly fuck all to do with "the behavior and identity of groups of people" in anything other than the broadest sense. Try not to attack ideas that you don't understand, eh?

Are you going to provide an explanation or do you think that if you use aggressive language that counts as an argument?

Your response is all too familiar to anyone who questions dialectics upon which certain movements much to their failure have become dogmatically wedded to. Class is not the only the only historically important contradiction, even Marx could recognize that. Dialectics are fluid and historically placed in social context, a fixed notion of class analysis traps you in the past and betrays the modes of analysis available to base radical alternatives.

The most radical analysis taps into the current collective identity that people associate themselves with.
 
OK, I know two million people will almost certainly have said this by this time, but...brilliant :) I suspect this is how Gandhi would have managed, using 21st century technology...

It's brilliant in exposing the myth of enforcing health and safety that the police use. It plays into the dialectic contradiction that is so plainly obvious once you point out they killed someone through their actions.
 
Are you going to provide an explanation or do you think that if you use aggressive language that counts as an argument?

Your response is all too familiar to anyone who questions dialectics upon which certain movements much to their failure have become dogmatically wedded to. Class is not the only the only historically important contradiction, even Marx could recognize that. Dialectics are fluid and historically placed in social context, a fixed notion of class analysis traps you in the past and betrays the modes of analysis available to base radical alternatives.

The most radical analysis taps into the current collective identity that people associate themselves with.
A Marxist class analysis would be one which focuses on the relationship between the bourgeoisie, sometimes called the ruling or boss class, (the class that owns and manages capital) and the proletariat, sometimes called the working class, (the class which is forced to sell its labour by social conditions). From this point of view, class is best viewed a social relationship, not a set of categories that you put people into or something that is determined by "identity".

Basically, the idea of class you're attacking is one based on sociology, not Marx's dialectics, which is fine, but pick one and stick with it, don't switch between the two at random as if they're identical.
 
A Marxist class analysis would be one which focuses on the relationship between the bourgeoisie, sometimes called the ruling or boss class, (the class that owns and manages capital) and the proletariat, sometimes called the working class, (the class which is forced to sell its labour by social conditions). From this point of view, class is best viewed a social relationship, not a set of categories that you put people into or something that is determined by "identity".

Basically, the idea of class you're attacking is one based on sociology, not Marx's dialectics, which is fine, but pick one and stick with it, don't switch between the two at random as if they're identical.


It's useful to highlight as you do that Marx's own definition of the class dialectic is very different from the sociological definition often used by those who 'bash the middle-class' or complain about the climate camp being middle-class.

My point really is that there are a whole range of different dialectic contradictions that can be employed, and even just sticking with Marx's definitions is not sufficient alone. It's very useful but can be strengthened by looking at it from other points of view.

That’s why I think class can be both a social relation and also something that relates to behavior and identity. It would be illogical for me to think that it's best to use different dialectics then insist on one definition, which must appear confusing, so perhaps I need to explain myself in more detail.

We can then compare say who Marx’s dialectic of class interacts with a rang of semiotic, sociocultural and psychological factors that affect how we form self identities and define collective identities. These in turn influence behaviors such as buying and controlling capital. That’s why I’m mixing things up; they are not distinct but fluid and constantly morphing, changing.

Bringing it back to Climate Camp, there are a whole range of things going on and any one dialectic is unlikely to fully explain it.
 
I was thinking of heading up today, any point? Take it not much'll be happening later and, to be honest, unless I can find a reason or arrange a drink with some friends I'm not sure I can be arsed.
 
Are the sanctimonious middle class the ignominy of our class?

It very much time to make the ignominy of our class history, 75 people gathered outside Rio Tinto building that is one of the world’s biggest mining and exploration companies, and a nexus of the global coal industry.

Between the 3rd and the 10th of August the first Camp for Climate Action was successfully held in Scotland. Climate Camp Scotland occupied Mainshill wood, the site of a proposed new open cast coal mine. The location was chosen in solidarity with local residents who are outraged at the proposed development, and to support a tree-sit already set up in the area to resist the mine.

Why were they there?

Scottish Coal, the UK’s largest open cast producer, has been given permission to mine 1.7 million tonnes of coal from Mainshill Wood in South Lanarkshire by South Lanarkshire Council, a decision that enraged local residents who for years have campaigned against the mine. There are four other mines in the area, making it one of the most heavily mined areas in Europe, as well as an area with the highest cancer rates in Scotland.

We neither have time for opencast coal mines we took action some years back and trashed a sight at Dolehill in Derbyshire, there are no leaders for the free now we should have all fucked off when the damage had been done, instead we decided to go and do a occupation, we was all charged with the theft of a yoghurt and weeks of court cases ensued the ignominy of our class had no solidarity with the working class involved, you never learn a lesson but the hard way, so for some time we continued to live under the delusion these fair weather friends was on our side.

It soon become clear they was nothing but, so why when the G8 Circus come to Sheffield why did we work with the soap dodgers again?, nothing but to the detriment of our self and our own health, some years on we still have a deep psychosis along with other issues, this said we have along the way learned som hard lessons along with making some real friends, so when Felix, Bertie, Robin, Oliver, Jasmin and a Clemmie state they understand your class struggle, lets remind them of people like Thomas Rainsborough

I shall blow up your buildings a little more and be less open with you than I was before. I wish we all truly wanted to change this cesspool we live in. And, sir, to say because a man pleads that every man hath a voice by right of nature, that therefore it destroys by the same argument all property That there’s a property, the Law of God says it; else why hath God made that law, Thou shalt not steal? I am a poor man, therefore I must be oppressed: if I have no interest in the kingdom, I must suffer by all their laws be they right or wrong. Nay thus: a gentleman lives in a country and hath three or four lordships, as some men have (God knows how they got them); and when a Parliament is called he must be a Parliament-man; and it may be he sees some poor men, they live near this man, he can crush them– I have known an invasion to make sure he hath turned the poor men out of doors; and I would fain know whether the potency of rich men do not this, and so keep them under the greatest and your sister too tyranny that was ever thought of in the world. And therefore I think that to that it is fully answered: God hath set down that thing as to propriety with this law of his, Thou shalt not steal. And for my part I am against any such thought, and, as for yourselves, I wish you would not make the world believe that we are NOT for anarchy BECAUSE WE ARE. NOW LET THE WORLD REST IN PEACE AND ANARCHY!
 
Probably depends on what you were planning to do there and what value you derive from it. I should guess there is lot’s to be done in terms of setting up, but not much in terms of participation of planned events but then I don’t know much about what is happening 

If you are not sure what the point is and don’t think you will have a good time (which should not be underrated) then personally I’d do something else.
 
Probably depends on what you were planning to do there and what value you derive from it. I should guess there is lot’s to be done in terms of setting up, but not much in terms of participation of planned events but then I don’t know much about what is happening 

If you are not sure what the point is and don’t think you will have a good time (which should not be underrated) then personally I’d do something else.

True enough, may still wonder over, not all that far from me anyway; did figure that there wouldn't be much happening to participate in though. Plus the entertainment value of Hippies playing bongos isn't quite tempting enough to merit the trip without the promise of a drink. Ho hum.
 
It very much time to make the ignominy of our class history, 75 people gathered outside Rio Tinto building that is one of the world’s biggest mining and exploration companies, and a nexus of the global coal industry.

Between the 3rd and the 10th of August the first Camp for Climate Action was successfully held in Scotland. Climate Camp Scotland occupied Mainshill wood, the site of a proposed new open cast coal mine. The location was chosen in solidarity with local residents who are outraged at the proposed development, and to support a tree-sit already set up in the area to resist the mine.

Why were they there?

Scottish Coal, the UK’s largest open cast producer, has been given permission to mine 1.7 million tonnes of coal from Mainshill Wood in South Lanarkshire by South Lanarkshire Council, a decision that enraged local residents who for years have campaigned against the mine. There are four other mines in the area, making it one of the most heavily mined areas in Europe, as well as an area with the highest cancer rates in Scotland.

We neither have time for opencast coal mines we took action some years back and trashed a sight at Dolehill in Derbyshire, there are no leaders for the free now we should have all fucked off when the damage had been done, instead we decided to go and do a occupation, we was all charged with the theft of a yoghurt and weeks of court cases ensued the ignominy of our class had no solidarity with the working class involved, you never learn a lesson but the hard way, so for some time we continued to live under the delusion these fair weather friends was on our side.

It soon become clear they was nothing but, so why when the G8 Circus come to Sheffield why did we work with the soap dodgers again?, nothing but to the detriment of our self and our own health, some years on we still have a deep psychosis along with other issues, this said we have along the way learned som hard lessons along with making some real friends, so when Felix, Bertie, Robin, Oliver, Jasmin and a Clemmie state they understand your class struggle, lets remind them of people like Thomas Rainsborough

I shall blow up your buildings a little more and be less open with you than I was before. I wish we all truly wanted to change this cesspool we live in. And, sir, to say because a man pleads that every man hath a voice by right of nature, that therefore it destroys by the same argument all property That there’s a property, the Law of God says it; else why hath God made that law, Thou shalt not steal? I am a poor man, therefore I must be oppressed: if I have no interest in the kingdom, I must suffer by all their laws be they right or wrong. Nay thus: a gentleman lives in a country and hath three or four lordships, as some men have (God knows how they got them); and when a Parliament is called he must be a Parliament-man; and it may be he sees some poor men, they live near this man, he can crush them– I have known an invasion to make sure he hath turned the poor men out of doors; and I would fain know whether the potency of rich men do not this, and so keep them under the greatest and your sister too tyranny that was ever thought of in the world. And therefore I think that to that it is fully answered: God hath set down that thing as to propriety with this law of his, Thou shalt not steal. And for my part I am against any such thought, and, as for yourselves, I wish you would not make the world believe that we are NOT for anarchy BECAUSE WE ARE. NOW LET THE WORLD REST IN PEACE AND ANARCHY!
have you a link to the site where that text originally appeared?
 
There are some bands playing Friday night apparently.

Cool. Will the BBC be there to televise this, too...?

I can see this becoming the Annual Blackheath Climate Camp. And it will stay as independent and as non-commercialised as Glastonbury, the iTunes Music Festival, etc

:D
 
Cool. Will the BBC be there to televise this, too...?

I can see this becoming the Annual Blackheath Climate Camp. And it will stay as independent and as non-commercialised as Glastonbury, the iTunes Music Festival, etc

:D

It's already Internationalized so peeps don't have to caravan themselves to the same ol' same ol' if they can't... but hey...some have to stay at work innit. Maybe they will make a payfor in the future to cater for pre-booked leave... then everyone can be a happy bunny.... :)
 
True enough, may still wonder over, not all that far from me anyway; did figure that there wouldn't be much happening to participate in though. Plus the entertainment value of Hippies playing bongos isn't quite tempting enough to merit the trip without the promise of a drink. Ho hum.

If I was local i'd wander over just becuase it would be something different to do.
 
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