Aug 27-Sept 2 Climate Camp returns to London

[In Bloom]

There was a piece in the Guardian today about climate camp as a group saying that they need a unanimous consensus on every single decision before they resolve to follow any given proposition.

Isn't that a wee bit unrealistic?

Nah. The reality of consensus decision making at most big events is a majority vote which is resolved by the people who disagree with the majority getting bored of arguing and shutting up so they can get out of the meeting and down to the pub. At its very worst, consensus becomes a means for a controlling minority to dominate meetings by virtue of being the loudest ones there.

Consensus is stupid liberal bullshit that originated with hippy Christians and should have been left with them but it does function as a decision making process, albeit a slow and undemocratic one.

 

[moon23]

I wont be going I have to work, and its not a priority way to spend my time either on an entertainment or activism. Hope others have a good time and manage to achieve something meaningful though.

 

[Treacle Toes]

that's why they have these tent things, with waterproof fabric over the top

they're cunning these enviro-terrorists

 

[moon23]

Consensus is stupid liberal bullshit that originated with hippy Christians and should have been left with them but it does function as a decision making process, albeit a slow and undemocratic one.

My experience is that disagreeing with conventional life-style activist wisdom is not the enlightened dialectic you might hope for, does help to show how authoritarian and cultist many groups can be though

 

[In Bloom]

My experience is that disagreeing with conventional life-style activist wisdom is not the enlightened dialectic you might hope for, does help to show how authoritarian and cultist many groups can be though

If you want to talk "authoritarian and cultist", I'd suggest you take a closer look at the green movement, who at times make the Scientologists look like the Universal Church.

 

[moon23]

Consensus is stupid liberal bullshit that originated with hippy Christians and should have been left with them but it does function as a decision making process, albeit a slow and undemocratic one.

My experience is that disagreeing with conventional life-style activist wisdom is not the enlightened dialectic you might hope for, does help to show how authoritarian and cultist many groups can be though

 

[Pickman's model]

If you want to talk "authoritarian and cultist", I'd suggest you take a closer look at the green movement, who at times make the Scientologists look like the Universal Church.

d'you mean the universal church of the kingdom of god?

 

[In Bloom]

d'you mean the universal church of the kingdom of god?

No, I mean this lot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

Who at times have referred to themselves as the Universal Church, IIRC.

 

[TopCat]

Not all decisions were taken at the camp by consensus. The moron who threatened my mates with a sledgehammer for having a little sack barrow sound system seemed to be acting on his own initiative. The campers who guarded two police people on site seemed to have taken that decision by themselves too. Have short are these peoples memories?

 

[In Bloom]

Not all decisions were taken at the camp by consensus. The moron who threatened my mates with a sledgehammer for having a little sack barrow sound system seemed to be acting on his own initiative. The campers who guarded two police people on site seemed to have taken that decision by themselves too. Have short are these peoples memories?

What the fuck? I sincerely hope the idiot with the sledgehammer was unceremoniously flung out at the first opportunity.

 

[TopCat]

What the fuck? I sincerely hope the idiot with the sledgehammer was unceremoniously flung out at the first opportunity.

He was one of the organisers! He got fronted, no one was hurt, it calmed down.

 

[Kanda]

The campers who guarded two police people on site seemed to have taken that decision by themselves too. Have short are these peoples memories?

What are they supposed to do? Give them a kicking?

 

[TopCat]

What are they supposed to do? Give them a kicking?

Refuse them entry to the site and oppose any attempts to force their way on with reasonable force.

 

[smokedout]

What are they supposed to do? Give them a kicking?

hit them with a sledgehammer

 

[TopCat]

hit them with a sledgehammer

That would hardly be reasonable force....

 

[Kanda]

Refuse them entry to the site and oppose any attempts to force their way on with reasonable force.

So kettle them out?

Why provoke them? It's just a couple of coppers that left site later isn't it??

 

[TopCat]

So kettle them out?

Why provoke them?

Ian Tomlinson is dead. One woman miscarried after a beating at the G20 climate camp protest. Hundreds of Climate Campers at G20 were attacked and assaulted by police. Stating the obvious I know but many at the camp seemed to have very short memories.

 

[Kanda]

Ian Tomlinson is dead. One woman miscarried after a beating at the G20 climate camp protest. Hundreds of Climate Campers at G20 were attacked and assaulted by police. Stating the obvious I know but many at the camp seemed to have very short memories.

Yeah, it was bang out of order, I completely agree. Kicking shit out of each other and retaliating does fuck all though does it???

Police joining in the games at Bishopsgate:

I hope it remains calm, that the protest goes without incident, that the police have learnt etc (but should still be held account for G20)

 

[moon23]

Yes it's nothing new the links between romanticism, neo-paganism, environmentalism and authoritarianism, cultism and pseudo-science have been around for quite some time. It’s the dark flip side of the coin that lies in wait ready to make fools of the unsuspecting journeymen.

I’d stop short of equating the green movement with fascism though, and I have spent a fair amount of the time arguing with some libertarians against that particular connection which is an historically naive overstatement.

The emotiveness amongst the movement is part of the problem, especially around things like nuclear power where a largely irrational fear of radiation as some ‘unnatural force’, flies in the face the evidence. The same emotiveness is also played out in the tactics used to create political change. For instance many eco-activists are more driven by the desire to partake in forms of protest that give them emotional pleasure rather than astutely calculating where the levers of power lie in society.

Climate Camp is an example of this, it’s not just about being green, but about a particular lifestyle you have to follow to be recognized as green. To be fair it’s in part a mythology that is perpetrated by the media with it’s attachment to cultural icons such as swampy and naive hippies they stick on Newsnight, but the wider movement allows that to happen all to easily, and then people even emulate those icons probably as they think that’s how they have to then behave to be ‘green’. How likely are people who enjoy different forms of entertainment going to listen to someone who sits around taking K and looks different from them?

This is why they get accused of being middle-class so often, because it is so fantastically unlike the experience of most working class people, not that class is the most useful mode of analysis these days where identity is so governed by other factors. The type of lifestyle the Climate Camp promotes will never challenge the infrastructure of PR, Politicians, Media, Advertising it’s like a fish nibbling at the toes of a giant. At best it might become a fashion trend that could influence some companies’ behavior as they attempt to exploit profit from the new green consumerism. The end result for most people is a media event that portrays environmentalism as being something alien to their way of life. It’s then easily portrayed and dismissed as a fringe protest. I doubt it if Climate Camp has succeeded in changing many minds.

I’m being harsh, At least going to the Camp is better then sitting at home consuming mass-culture. Most people don’t really want to try and change minds, they are happy living out their little fantasy of radicalism and maybe simply offering up an alternative life-style even if it’s not a feasible mode of living for most people is something at least.

It has been effective in highlighting some civil liberty issues, much to the frustration of some campers who feel their message is lost in the conflict with the police, and no I don’t have any better solutions other than infiltrating the identity industry and suggesting that people constantly try to think about the extent to how their actions are likely to influence the average mail or sun reader.

On a positive note some of the campers are getting better at PR with this public voting thing on what the direct action targets will be, I wonder how much tension that creates amongst the purists who think engaging with the corporate media is a sin?

 

[moon23]

Not all decisions were taken at the camp by consensus. The moron who threatened my mates with a sledgehammer for having a little sack barrow sound system seemed to be acting on his own initiative. The campers who guarded two police people on site seemed to have taken that decision by themselves too. Have short are these peoples memories?

Quelle surprise Climate Camp is not a Harmonious utopia?

 

[e19896]

I really can’t begin to describle how awful Climate Camp is. I’ve tried – god knows I’ve tried. But a total load of sanctimonious middle class bossy boots hanging out in Blackheath is beyond parody. Brew Crew where are you? I’ve since been informed from his own mouth that the TRANQUILLITY SQUAD member is in his second year at CAMBRIDGE and a memberof their rowing crew. I kid you not – the rest are even fucking worse. I haven’t had such class antagonistic goose pimples since the Henley Regatta. Fucking Jesus!

But resistence grows……….

 

[berniedicters]

it is taken from elsewhere and certainly don't appear to be your work. i'm interested in what YOU think, not in some fuckspud cut'n'paste odyssey

Good luck with that, then.

I wondered how long it'd take enumbers to ramp up into his full word-recycling rantfest. Not long, as it turned out.

 

[moon23]

But resistence grows……….

I see where he is coming from, but such class analysis fails because it is

A not pragmatic within it’s own axioms of understanding because it’s divisive between groupings that need to work together

B A limited and outdated metaphor to describe a collective identity, that takes little account into how that identity is formed.

 

[TopCat]

I see where he is coming from, but such class analysis fails because it is

A not pragmatic within it’s own axioms of understanding because it’s divisive between groupings that need to work together

B A limited and outdated metaphor to describe a collective identity, that takes little account into how that identity is formed.

Oh now I realise that a lifetime of applying a class analysis to struggle has been a waste of time. Thankyou for removing the scales from my eyes.

 

[moon23]

Oh now I realise that a lifetime of applying a class analysis to struggle has been a waste of time. Thankyou for removing the scales from my eyes.

That’s ok mate, always happy to help

Of course it’s not entirely uselessm, you have not been wasting all of your time. Class anaylsis is like some painkillers in that it's best not taken on an empty stomach. Class is just a collective metaphor we use to try and describe the behavior and identity of groups of people. Of course ‘class struggle’ as a movement contains lots of useful insights as to how people interact, and is a powerful tool, it just shouldn’t limit itself to linking everything back to class as the most influential factor.

Working/Middle Class is a factor, but there are ranges of other dialectics that we can employ to come up with a more comprehensive analysis.

 

[Roadkill]

Yes, but that was the good old days.

Now, Blackheath is a busy A-Road and slip road for the Blackwall Tunnel.

It's also common land, which makes it harder to evict the camp than if it had set up in a park.

I live near Blackheath, so might amble up there for a look round sometime over the weekend...

 

[TopCat]

That’s ok mate, always happy to help

Of course it’s not entirely useless but like some painkillers it’s best not taken on an empty stomach. Class is just a collective metaphor we use to try and describe the behavior and identity of groups of people. Of course ‘class struggle’ as a movement contains lots of useful insights as to how people interact, and is a powerful tool, it just shouldn’t limit itself to linking everything back to class as the most influential factor.

Working/Middle Class is a factor, but there are ranges of other dialectics that we can employ to come up with a more comprehensive analysis.

I love your use of "We". Who else are you referring to?

 

[moon23]

I love your use of "We". Who else are you referring to?

I was using it to refer to people generally and myself, as in we as the people can do x or y.

 

[boskysquelch]

WEST SIDE!!!111

 

[In Bloom]

That’s ok mate, always happy to help

Of course it’s not entirely uselessm, you have not been wasting all of your time. Class anaylsis is like some painkillers in that it's best not taken on an empty stomach. Class is just a collective metaphor we use to try and describe the behavior and identity of groups of people. Of course ‘class struggle’ as a movement contains lots of useful insights as to how people interact, and is a powerful tool, it just shouldn’t limit itself to linking everything back to class as the most influential factor.

Working/Middle Class is a factor, but there are ranges of other dialectics that we can employ to come up with a more comprehensive analysis.

Class as a tool of radical social analysis has roughly fuck all to do with "the behavior and identity of groups of people" in anything other than the broadest sense. Try not to attack ideas that you don't understand, eh?