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    Lazy Llama

Aug 27-Sept 2 Climate Camp returns to London

Hopefully they'll remember what happened to Wat Tyler after he left Blackheath and toddled off up to Smithfields.

Once you've got rid of the "Origami for Activists" bits the Climate Camp programme seems just Yet Another Climate Conference. If they rented some rooms in a hotel and gave out some naff tea and biscuits they'd probably convert more people. Sitting in a field for a week will just preach to the converted and supply Journos with news-stories.

I am not one of the converted and went along and was open to ideas? My GF's son went along and he knows little about it and found much of interest. My GF came and she found it intersting. So all this preaching to the converted is a bit of bollocks, an easy excuse to ignore those clamouring for change. And a stupid diversion to suggest we need to pitch all ideas of change at Daily Mail readers.
 
I am not one of the converted and went along and was open to ideas? My GF's son went along and he knows little about it and found much of interest. My GF came and she found it intersting. So all this preaching to the converted is a bit of bollocks, an easy excuse to ignore those clamouring for change. And a stupid diversion to suggest we need to pitch all ideas of change at Daily Mail readers.

Topcat the very nature of what it is will be a barrier to most people, I don’t know you but strongly suspect your anecdotal experience is not very representative of the masses. I don’t know what is sustainable about creating a temporary tent city, it’s certainly not something everyone could do.

As someone mentioned you could hold this event in a hotel or University, perhaps with spin-out events like the Convention of Modern liberty did, and tied into a range of mass media engagement and a series of BBC programs. Jeez if it was done seriously you would probably get some movers and shakers on board and actually contribute to some serious policy development.

Instead people are getting trained about how to get arrested, and engaging in an orgy of self-righteousness. The green movement needs to grow up stop and stop playing the radical. Getting high in fields will change nought. People need to realize that real change is not about having a party or pissing about in a field it’s about spreadsheets, difficult planning meetings where complex issues are played out, engineering solutions, playing the mainstream media, influencing people’s aspirations, public meetings, handing out leaflets in the rain.

Most people see the Climate Change and they see a bunch of hippies, what does climate camp mean to your average person whose life is about work, family, having a drink, watching some sport reading a paper and watching the telly? Fuck all is the answer and that’s the problem.
 
Topcat the very nature of what it is will be a barrier to most people, I don’t know you but strongly suspect your anecdotal experience is not very representative of the masses. I don’t know what is sustainable about creating a temporary tent cities, it’s certainly not something everyone could do.

As someone mentioned you could hold this event in a hotel or University, perhaps with spin-out events like the Convention of Modern liberty and tied into a range of mass media engagement and a series of BBC programs. Jeez if it was done seriously you would probably get some movers and shakers on board and actually contribute to some serious policy development.

Instead people are getting trained about how to get arrested, and engaging in an orgy of self-righteousness. The green movement needs to grow up stop and stop playing the radical. Getting high in fields will change nought. People need to realize that real change is not about having a party or pissing about in a field it’s about spreadsheets, difficult planning meetings where complex issues are played out, engineering solutions, playing the mainstream media, influencing people’s aspirations, public meetings, handing out leaflets in the rain.

Most people see the Climate Change and they see a bunch of hippies, what does climate camp mean to your average person whose life is about work, family, having a drink, watching some sport reading a paper and watching the telly? Fuck all is the answer and that’s the problem.
lol i agree with most of what you were saying, in that most people are alienated by these events ( it feeds into the victim complex many people currently have) but then you started on about 'spreadsheets, difficult planning meetings' and i think you have missed the point which is that these people (and i) do not think capitalism as the ability to deal with climate change
 
lol i agree with most of what you were saying, in that most people are alienated by these events ( it feeds into the victim complex many people currently have) but then you started on about 'spreadsheets, difficult planning meetings' and i think you have missed the point which is that these people (and i) do not think capitalism as the ability to deal with climate change

So what a non-capitalist society would have no spreadsheets or planning meetings? Opposing Capitalism requires all those boring work things as well.
 
People need to realize that real change is not about having a party or pissing about in a field it’s about spreadsheets, difficult planning meetings where complex issues are played out, engineering solutions, playing the mainstream media, influencing people’s aspirations, public meetings, handing out leaflets in the rain.

That's your view and not one I agree with. I think radical change will only come from sustained insurrection involving mass actions against the police if they try to stop self organised demonstrations. :)
 
So what a non-capitalist society would have no spreadsheets or planning meetings? Opposing Capitalism requires all those boring work things as well.
of course planning but all that quantative shit is part of the problem which ignore what 'quality' actually is and alienates people from what is going on
 
That's your view and not one I agree with. I think radical change will only come from sustained insurrection involving mass actions against the police if they try to stop self organised demonstrations. :)

A ‘sustained insurrection’ does not seem a terribly realistic prospect. I guess I’m more bothered about making Environmental activism about law-making rather than law-breaking.
 
of course planning but all that quantative shit is part of the problem which ignore what 'quality' actually is and alienates people from what is going on

Yes instrumentalization of bureaucratic processes within technological societies is a problem, but partly because people have setup up those systems in a way which acts in their benefit. The current quantitive processes within our current society are in other words loaded in favour of the interests of the capitalists and backed up by a civil service, and internationally through legislation, the world bank and IMF.

That’s all the more challenge we have to setup our own democratic processes and adapt existing processes to our political will in a transition period. Climate Camp is way off the levers of power in this regard.
 
Yes instrumentalization of bureaucratic processes within technological societies is a problem, but partly because people have setup up those systems in a way which acts in their benefit. The current quantitive processes within our current society are in other words loaded in favour of the interests of the capitalists and backed up by a civil service, and internationally through legislation, the world bank and IMF.

That’s all the more challenge we have to setup our own democratic processes and adapt existing processes to our political will in a transition period. Climate Camp is way off the levers of power in this regard.
fair play and this is the tension in the CC movement :)
 
Yes instrumentalization of bureaucratic processes within technological societies is a problem, but partly because people have setup up those systems in a way which acts in their benefit. The current quantitive processes within our current society are in other words loaded in favour of the interests of the capitalists and backed up by a civil service, and internationally through legislation, the world bank and IMF.

That’s all the more challenge we have to setup our own democratic processes and adapt existing processes to our political will in a transition period. Climate Camp is way off the levers of power in this regard.

What beg current leaders for reform? Capitalism can't be reformed, it needs constant growth to survive.
 
Perhaps i'm being too harsh and CC does help bring an awareness about through displaying those tensions.
no i am not sure you are .. i am really not sure it does any good at all frankly .. as i said above it plays totally into the whole negative stuff thats going on ( no smoking no speeding no flying no cars don't do this don't do that, that people really hate ( rightly or wrongly) and the positive self organisation stuff ( which is cool) is soo out of peoples ken that it just does not inspire 99% of those people


.. the vague hopes i guess is that it could inspire enough young people that at some stage in the future it breaks out of its incredibly middle class ghetto
 
No not beg current leaders, but rather ingrain the ideas so deeply into society with a full-spectrum approach that people are able to lead themselves.

Think how an ad man manipulates a consumer, they sell happiness. As Durruti2 just points out CC plays into the negative stuff and any positive organizing aspects are too detached from the experiences of most working people. It’s a political dud in term of changing people’s minds.

Think how a newspaper influences its reader, how the civil service create the process in which laws are created, how a University course educates people. All these forces create the capitalist hegemony. Now imagine if we were to become the magistrate, the University lecturer, the program editor as some of us may already be and we harnessed the tools to teach self-determination, open debate, equalitarianism, environmentalism.
 
No not beg current leaders, but rather ingrain the ideas so deeply into society with a full-spectrum approach that people are able to lead themselves.

Think how an ad man manipulates a consumer, they sell happiness. As Durruti2 just points out CC plays into the negative stuff and any positive organizing aspects are too detached from the experiences of most working people. It’s a political dud in term of changing people’s minds.

Think how a newspaper influences its reader, how the civil service create the process in which laws are created, how a University course educates people. All these forces create the capitalist hegemony. Now imagine if we were to become the magistrate, the University lecturer, the program editor as some of us may already be and we harnessed the tools to teach self-determination, open debate, equalitarianism, environmentalism.

again i agree "CC plays into the negative stuff and any positive organizing aspects are too detached from the experiences of most working people. It’s a political dud in term of changing people’s minds. "

but really can't agree with "Now imagine if we were to become the magistrate, the University lecturer, the program editor ....."

imho and looking at history it just does not work like that .. this has been the policy of many middle class leftists for generations .. i can not see it working .. if that IS you then fine do that kinda stuff but the class dynamic represented by this actually is the same as your negative comment above
 
no i am not sure you are .. i am really not sure it does any good at all frankly .. as i said above it plays totally into the whole negative stuff thats going on ( no smoking no speeding no flying no cars don't do this don't do that, that people really hate ( rightly or wrongly) and the positive self organisation stuff ( which is cool) is soo out of peoples ken that it just does not inspire 99% of those people


.. the vague hopes i guess is that it could inspire enough young people that at some stage in the future it breaks out of its incredibly middle class ghetto

I agree generally people like to feel like they are self-determined and don’t like being told they can’t do x or y which is why Capitalist consumer culture does so well, as it provides the illusion of us determining ourselves through the purchases we make. Through the process of reification our interactions become like transactions, items take on fetish properties that we trade to obtain satisfaction, wealth, power and sex.

People will always want a degree of material wealth, but if you are able to provide other means of satisfaction then you are onto a winning with a political idea. Imagine for instance if climate camp was built around the model of a street party or village fete. I’ve seen a few kinds of fun local environmental things like this and to be honest they engage far more people then CC does. They are also a lot more likely to engage the working classes. For instance school children get involved, people bake and sell cakes You could even rig up a sustainable power source to power a screening of X-Factor or a range of other forms of entertainment that are quite popular.

I have a lot more respect for someone working on something like the idea of becoming a transition town rather than someone who seeks to paint themselves as a radical. The later just seems threatening to people rather than a new way of living that could be a lot more fun!
 
imho and looking at history it just does not work like that .. this has been the policy of many middle class leftists for generations .. i can not see it working .. if that IS you then fine do that kinda stuff but the class dynamic represented by this actually is the same as your negative comment above

Maybe I need to break out of my own Ghetto, but empowering people to realize that they can themselves become the instituion is the intention.
 
just got back, was nice enough if a little irrelevant, but the 6 year old enjoyed it - even if after a couple of hours he was wandering round site shouting its boring here

and it was, theres lots of signs up saying this is not a festival etc, but given the lack of any significant actions it all seemed a little pointless

a bit more entertainment, a bit more for kids, and it might have actually engaged the community, as it was, it was all very worthy, all very middle class, utterly pointless and just a little bit dull
 
I went to quite an interesting meeting/workshop (I think hosted by the Anarchist Federation) on Friday, but yes - not much entertainment-wise going on and didn't really see the point of it myself. It's the first one I've been too though. Reminded me of a less interesting Earth First gathering but with more students.
 
just got back, was nice enough if a little irrelevant, but the 6 year old enjoyed it - even if after a couple of hours he was wandering round site shouting its boring here

and it was, theres lots of signs up saying this is not a festival etc, but given the lack of any significant actions it all seemed a little pointless

a bit more entertainment, a bit more for kids, and it might have actually engaged the community, as it was, it was all very worthy, all very middle class, utterly pointless and just a little bit dull
agree .. at heathrow it seemed relevent and many locals who came were directly affected by it .. kingsnorth again was direct and building up to mass action .. i don't know i just feel little in common with this this year
 
I attended a couple of workshops today and was generaly very impressed with the level of technical discussion involved. The one on 'techno fixes' was far far too brief for such a vast broad topic but to be fair many of these individual fixes have entire confrences and university courses dedicated to them alone.

The other was a primer on comunicating climate change to others and this was also good. It managed to be honest about the doubts and in fact emphisised the many areas where there is still a great deal of uncertanty and easily managed to stay within the bounds of IPCC4, while touching on the sense of alarm many professionals within the climate science comunity feel. To be fair I was expecting something alot less technical and more alarmist. It also managed to cover areas such as the psychology of risk perception and the "importing" of carbon.

Gvien that these are not seminars held by Gavin Schmidt or James Hansen, I was very comfortable with the level of of the science being discussed.

Two issues stuck in the mind. Whenever population came up, people were very quick to point out it is consumption not numbers that is the problem. That is to say people were very quick to point out that solutions involved the wealthy (us) changing our lifestyles not population cuts. There are alot of groups who use energy depletion and ecological problems are trojan horses for 'population' agendas. I really dont think this is what was happening here.

And whenever China was brought up, people were quick to point out we consume Chinas carbon production (all the crap we import form the third world).

Two of the easiest scapegoats for the worlds carbon were being actively played down.

From a technical perspective I was pretty comfortable with the infromation being presented. I also spoke to a couple of people who were not really political activists but had come along.

My impression from the past 3 days re-inforces what I seen at Bishopsgate. It is something that has alot of potential to appeal to people who are not currently all that involved in active politics. It is also something that will not immediately alienate mainstream opinion. I really wish them all the best of success. I am struggling to think of other groups who are attracting young people to get involved and take risks for political changes.
 
out of curiosity, who's doing the cooking at the camp? when i went to see the hippies yesterday, it seemed to be exclusively women. what would the anarcha-feminists think? :mad:
 
Nah, she's a columnist / commentator, has just as much to say for herself whether anything happens or not.

And she's definitely not looking for violent confrontation, in her handbook for activists she presents some analysis of the effectiveness of activism vs pacifism, and concludes that although non-violence is ineffective, social movements should stick to it as it's just a bit nicer.
 
My impression from the past 3 days re-inforces what I seen at Bishopsgate. It is something that has alot of potential to appeal to people who are not currently all that involved in active politics. It is also something that will not immediately alienate mainstream opinion. I really wish them all the best of success. I am struggling to think of other groups who are attracting young people to get involved and take risks for political changes.

If they dropped the "anti-capitalism" bit they would have more success. All the people I've spoken won't bother with them because of it. And if they are going to abolish capialism, by the time they've implemented something better Climate Change will have happened.

But then they would just be what they really are. Yet another lobby group, just one that thinks they are special and can break the rulez.
 
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