Atos appeal - I dont know where to turn

[lor6126]

hi everyone, as the title says. I dont know where to turn. its nine days to christmas and iv never felt more ill or alone.
A year ago i was a manager for a well known bookmaker. I was paid off through ill health in January, i have Fibromyalgia and Depression. In August I was assessed for PIP and got the care part. In September i was found fit to work by Atos. My appeal was two days ago and the decision was upheld. I cannot claim JSA. i tried after the atos medical and had to cancel the claim as they said i wasnt fit to work.
So now i have £50 a week to live on,i dont know how i am going to survive. I am told i cant reapply until six months have passed, nearly ten weeks away.At the moment i dont even know if i want to live that long. I have nowhere left to turn.
I appreciate if you read this, i feel slightly better for having put things into words

 

[Greebo]

Hello lor6126 welcome to urban.

Although you can't get JSA (because unfit to work), your care component of PIP is lower than the Income Support limit. Anyway, PIP is 100% disregarded as it's supposed to compensate for the extra costs of being sick or disabled.

Therefore, I suggest that you put in a claim for IS. Get the CAB, or your nearest disability rights or welfare rights centre to help you with this, but please get it done soon.

Also, you could get Housing Benefit or Local Housing Allowance, plus some help with your Council Tax. Easy enough to prove that your income is under the IS threshold as PIP is supposed to be disregarded as income (the same as DLA was).

BTW I accept that right now your life is pretty grim, but hang on in there. You're not alone, I can tell you that much.

 

[equationgirl]

What Greebo says - and you really aren't alone in all this. I hope things improve for you soon.

Please consider putting in applications for other benefits also.

 

[ShiftyBagLady]

Sorry to hear that you're having such a rough ride of it at the moment. Do look into income support, I hope you can get some help there, and be sure to back date your claim as far as you can

 

[BigTom]

It's pretty incredible that we have a system where you can be too ill for jsa but not ill enough for esa.
You need serious advice for this, cab and your local mp straight away (even tory scum mp can usually see the issue here), possibly also something like mind or a support org for fibromyalgia might be able to help.
Good luck, wish I could be of more practical support, if you're in Brum I can put you in touch with the local claimants' union who can help support you.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Could a mod edit the title of the OP, it is misleading when you read the post.

 

[Pickman's model]

Could a mod edit the title of the OP, it is misleading when you read the post.

editor FridgeMagnet mango5

 

[mango5]

Done

 

[lor6126]

wow, thank you for all your responses.Im sorry i worded part about JSA wrongly. I claimed it pending my appeal for two days and had to cancel as i couldnt meet the things in the agreement and waited until i could go back onto esa appeal rate.
Iv looked at the criteria for claiming income support and dont think i meet it as iv been found fit to work even tho my doctor says im not. I still have a current fit note for two months but i believe failing my appeal a few days ago cancels this out.

 

[Greebo]

wow, thank you for all your responses.Im sorry i worded part about JSA wrongly. I claimed it pending my appeal for two days and had to cancel as i couldnt meet the things in the agreement and waited until i could go back onto esa appeal rate.
Iv looked at the criteria for claiming income support and dont think i meet it as iv been found fit to work even tho my doctor says im not. I still have a current fit note for two months but i believe failing my appeal a few days ago cancels this out.

Okay. Contact the CAB or get other expert help, but do it as soon as you can. If they say you can apply for IS, go ahead and do it.

In any case, you're still eligible for housing benefit and council tax benefit.

You're also eligible for free prescriptions. You'll have to fill in the form for exemption because of low income, and wait to get the low income exemption certificate back, instead of just being able to mark a box on the back of the prescription (as you'd do while getting JSA or ESA). The same goes for dental treatment, eye tests, and glasses. More red tape, but it can be done.

 

[lor6126]

Hi Greebo, thanks for taking the time to reply. Our town does not have a CAB. there is a money advice unit which advises about benefits. It is closed today but il phone tomorrow morning. I actually still have a low income certificate i applied from at beginning of year when i was still recieving statutory sick pay. i will sort housing benefit tommorow also.
iv been doing a lot of reading,(cant sleep due to stress) and wonder if i can reapply for ESA before the six month period is up if my condition has worsened, it has. Does anyone know how this works ?
Im also interested in knowing how applying to the upper tribunal ona point of law works ? I think i may have a case here as iv found a judgement on identical curcumstances to mine. Is it worth doing ?.
Sorry for so many questions but my depression is really bad at the moment and im trying to keep my mind busy.
sorry for any spelling errors, i have mobility problems which make typing difficult.

 

[zippyRN]

You were not found fit to work by Atos you were found fit to work by the DWP decision maker based on all the evidence, this may seem like pedantry but it is part of the problem in dealing with these issues, the constant inaccuracy of the left in their representation of policies they themselves introduced during the 13 glorious years of record tractor production under the Dear Leader and the Great Leader.

As others have said PIP has NOTHING to do with whether you are in work, claiming JSA or on ESA ( nor which ESA group you are in )

another thing which seems to be causing confusion is where people are placed in ESA WRAG but they themselves claim to be too ill to undertake the activities required of them.

as greebo suggests there are other benefits that you may well be eligible for - HB /LHA , council tax support , help with health costs - PIP is disregarded as income for other benefits stuff.

 

[toggle]

if thing shave got worse, reapply now.

evidence gather.

what specialists have you seen, what letters do you have from them?

how cooperative is your GP? you need to visit them to describe worsening symptoms. and get them to put something in writing about it. if it's not written down, it dosen't exist. atos will ignore, and a tribunal can't rule on stuff you're ust giving verbal description of. you've not mentioned anything about the appeal. did you have any support in preparing for that? even just from a group of people who have been through the expereince like us?

if you're reading lots, then great. other thread has a lot of links, including details of the forms and descriptors. erm equationgirl? i think you put up some of that recently? but this forum has a search function and there's loads of stuff in various threads. on the practical sides of dealing with this process as well as our opinions on how shit it all is.

read the descriptors, and work out how to relate your condition to the things that gain you points. include everything.

start keep[ing a symptom diary. write down everything. include side effects of medication, pain levels. mobility,we do this for Bakunin

do you have someone who knows you well that can read this? they will likely tell you to add things that you have got so used to you haven't included.

i wasn't kidding about including everything. Minnie_the_Minx does her other half's forms and included several pages of extra information.

photocopy the forms, or scan them. save this and copies of all your documents. keeping this bunch of arseholes from doing this to you again in 6 months or a year will require you to keep the documents so you don't have to do everyhting all over again.

if you have copies of the forms you did before, read them again, search for what you didn't include.

and no one is going to have a pop at you over spelling.

or asking for help.

there's people who will help via private message if you want help working out how to say styuff and don't want to spread details of your illness all over the boards all the time.

 

[toggle]

You were not found fit to work by Atos you were found fit to work by the DWP decision maker based on all the evidence, this may seem like pedantry but it is part of the problem in dealing with these issues, the constant inaccuracy of the left in their representation of policies they themselves introduced during the 13 glorious years of record tractor production under the Dear Leader and the Great Leader.

.

and you actually consider this thread an appropriate place for this whining?

 

[StoneRoad]

zippyRN - please keep the politics out of a thread where the OP is asking for help and others are trying to offer support.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

i wasn't kidding about including everything. Minnie_the_Minx does her other half's forms and included several pages of information.

Actually it was 40-50 pages of additional information as the forms don't really take into account brain damage/memory loss. I doubt they even read it considering they said he got into support group because of physical difficulties so those 40-50 pages seemed irrelevant to them

 

[ViolentPanda]

hi everyone, as the title says. I dont know where to turn. its nine days to christmas and iv never felt more ill or alone.
A year ago i was a manager for a well known bookmaker. I was paid off through ill health in January, i have Fibromyalgia and Depression. In August I was assessed for PIP and got the care part. In September i was found fit to work by Atos. My appeal was two days ago and the decision was upheld. I cannot claim JSA. i tried after the atos medical and had to cancel the claim as they said i wasnt fit to work.
So now i have £50 a week to live on,i dont know how i am going to survive. I am told i cant reapply until six months have passed, nearly ten weeks away.At the moment i dont even know if i want to live that long. I have nowhere left to turn.
I appreciate if you read this, i feel slightly better for having put things into words

You're entitled to claim Income Support, as the care component of PIP is below the minimum threshold that the DWP reckon you need to live on. Qualifying for Income Support means that you also qualify for Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit (your receipt of PIP care component also qualifies you for CTB).

When you say your appeal, do you mean the mandatory reconsideration that you have to ask for when you're turned down, or the appeal you can make after your mandatory reconsideration has been turned down?

Are your diagnoses of fibro and depression self-diagnoses, or diagnoses from consultants (I'm not questioning that you have these conditions, by the way!) ? The DWP are very strict about not accepting self-diagnoses, and demanding actual medical evidence (my Atos "work capability assessment" last week saw me taking a dozen different hospital letters, as well as printouts of manufacturer medication side-effects pamphlets, and my original application form - I was on Incapacity Benefit, and had to apply for ESA, because the DWP refused to "passport" anyone straight from one benefit to another - had pages of additional evidence and the names and positions of every consultant I've seen in the last 20 years. You have to basically snow them under with evidence, because it makes it much harder for them to turn you down.

As for what you can do about your situation, I'd suggest looking up the M.E. charities (who, in the absence of a specific fibro charity, appear to cover the illness because of the cross-over of symptoms with M.E.) online, and phoning their helplines with regard to your situation. They can sometimes put you on to local welfare advice advocates who can help argue your case for you with the DWP etc.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You were not found fit to work by Atos you were found fit to work by the DWP decision maker based on all the evidence, this may seem like pedantry but it is part of the problem in dealing with these issues, the constant inaccuracy of the left in their representation of policies they themselves introduced during the 13 glorious years of record tractor production under the Dear Leader and the Great Leader.

As others have said PIP has NOTHING to do with whether you are in work, claiming JSA or on ESA ( nor which ESA group you are in )

another thing which seems to be causing confusion is where people are placed in ESA WRAG but they themselves claim to be too ill to undertake the activities required of them.

as greebo suggests there are other benefits that you may well be eligible for - HB /LHA , council tax support , help with health costs - PIP is disregarded as income for other benefits stuff.

Fuck off with your sectarian political bullshit, you knobshine. This isn't the place for it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

and you actually consider this thread an appropriate place for this whining?

He's like an incontinent dog, pissing and moaning all over the shop.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Actually it was 40-50 pages of additional information as the forms don't really take into account brain damage/memory loss. I doubt they even read it considering they said he got into support group because of physical difficulties so those 40-50 pages seemed irrelevant to them

TBF, as we said at the time, it's not really about them doing a detailed reading of what you send in, it's about presenting them with such a mass of evidence that they're put in a situation that makes them actually think about the decision they're making, rather than just rubber-stamping a denial.

 

[toggle]

Actually it was 40-50 pages of additional information as the forms don't really take into account brain damage/memory loss. I doubt they even read it considering they said he got into support group because of physical difficulties so those 40-50 pages seemed irrelevant to them

Which does still hammer home the point of 'include everything'

TBF, as we said at the time, it's not really about them doing a detailed reading of what you send in, it's about presenting them with such a mass of evidence that they're put in a situation that makes them actually think about the decision they're making, rather than just rubber-stamping a denial.

there's also a point in drowning them in stuff they clearly aren't able to understand. dwp people doing this shjit don't like looking like idiots

 

[scooter]

You apply to the Upper Tribunal by first writing to the judge of the Lower Tribunal and asking for a Statement of Reasons (this request has to be in writing). Once you get the Statement of Reasons you need to show it to a Welfare Rights solicitor who will look for errors in law. You can get legal aid for the Upper Tribunal.

You can make a new claim for ESA if you have a new condition or your existing condition has worsened. You can claim JSA with restrictions on the type of work you can do.

Out of curiosity, on what grounds are people thinking he/she would be eligible for IS?

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

TBF, as we said at the time, it's not really about them doing a detailed reading of what you send in, it's about presenting them with such a mass of evidence that they're put in a situation that makes them actually think about the decision they're making, rather than just rubber-stamping a denial.

Which does still hammer home the point of 'include everything'



there's also a point in drowning them in stuff they clearly aren't able to understand. dwp people doing this shjit don't like looking like idiots

oh yes, and I realise that, it's just annoying having to provide all that information in the first place. It won't stop me from sending them 40-50 pages of information next time though

And I feel sorry for the poor sods on here (you know who you are) who had to read it all

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Qualifying for Income Support means that you also qualify for Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit (your receipt of PIP care component also qualifies you for CTB).

Not wishing to pick holes, but can I clarify that bit which could be misunderstood -

Getting income support qualifies you for the maximum amount of housing / council tax benefit that you could get (this may not be your full rent if your rent is higher than the local housing allowance limit for private tenancies, or if you're hit by the 'bedroom tax' in a social tenancy.

You can still claim and receive housing benefit / council tax reduction on a low income, whether that income is from social security benefits, wages, notional income from savings (up to £ 16K) or any combination of the three.

You do not have to be on DWP benefits to get housing / council tax benefit.

Also, it's not an 'all or nothing' benefit - it's a calculation based on circumstances, income and rent. If your income is at or below income support level (whether that's IS or other income) then you would get maximum HB, if your income is a bit higher you would get most of your rent and so on, on a sliding scale.

Council tax reduction schemes work on a similar basis, although the rules are more localised now, and in some areas you still have to pay some council tax even if you're on IS level income.

You can even claim HB on a zero income, but they will want to know how you're meeting your living expenses (they tend not to believe people who claim to be existing on absolutely nothing)

If the OP is liable to pay rent and / or council tax and is not currently claiming HB / CTB, I'd advise claiming from local council soonest on the basis of current income.

As and when circumstances change, then report a change of circumstances - if you can't provide proof of new income immediately, this keeps your claim going and they will re-calculate it when you provide this (as long as you don't drag it out for ages)

Having a HB claim stopped because your DWP benefits have stopped, waiting for DWP to inform council (this can take time) and then doing something about it is not the right answer - there is a risk that your claim will be stopped from the date your DWP benefits stopped (and they will say they have overpaid you since then), and any new claim will start from such time as you do something about it.

It is in theory possible to claim 'backdating' (i.e. putting a claim in now and seeking HB for a period in the past as well as from now on) but this is difficult, and there has to be what's considered a very good reason - it's best to seek qualified advice here (CAB or some such.) It may be worth a go on grounds of health in these circumstances.

I'm not sure what the answer is to the bigger question - I'd be inclined to suggest re-apply for JSA - I think you're allowed to stay on JSA if you provide a sick note (or whatever they get called at the moment) for a while.

I would have thought that being refused ESA would be grounds for challenging a decision not to pay JSA.

I'm not sure that 'claim income support' is quite the answer here - income support is in effect the income based version of JSA / ESA and you need to meet the basic (unemployed / not able to work) criteria.

http://unemploymentmovement.com/forum/index may be worth a look as well.

 

[Roadkill]

You were not found fit to work by Atos you were found fit to work by the DWP decision maker based on all the evidence, this may seem like pedantry but it is part of the problem in dealing with these issues, the constant inaccuracy of the left in their representation of policies they themselves introduced during the 13 glorious years of record tractor production under the Dear Leader and the Great Leader.

This is a thread asking for help by someone confused and distressed: as toggle says, your pathetic attempts at political point-scoring aren't appropriate. If you want to start a thread about the 'merits' of the ESA assessment system then go and do it in P&P. Having recently seen from very close up how utterly unfit for purpose the whole thing is I'll gladly tear you a new one there.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I'll gladly tear you a new one there.

would that qualify someone for ESA, though?

 

[Greebo]

would that qualify someone for ESA, though?

If there's any justice in the world, it very probably would.

 

[toggle]

This is a thread asking for help by someone confused and distressed: as toggle says, your pathetic attempts at political point-scoring aren't appropriate. If you want to start a thread about the 'merits' of the ESA assessment system then go and do it in P&P. Having recently seen from very close up how utterly unfit for purpose the whole thing is I'll gladly tear you a new one there.

i would offer to hold your coat, but i'm afraid i'd have to join in with that one.

 

[longdog]

and wonder if i can reapply for ESA before the six month period is up if my condition has worsened, it has. Does anyone know how this works ?

I did exactly this.

Long story short... I had a medical assessment in January or February and got zero points so got kicked off means tested ESA and had to claim JSA. I lost the plot completely and made a new claim for ESA on the basis of a worsening condition after 11 weeks. I sent in a MED3 from my GP marked "Bipolar depression worsening" and they put me back on the assessment rate which is shite but better than being kicked in the bollocks. As things turned out I won my appeal anyway but I had already been put back in the support group on my new claim without a medical.

As far as I can tell the whole system is one small step away from total collapse with medicals taking waaaaay longer than the 13 weeks they are supposed to take if they happen at all. If my half-baked theories are correct then the DWP are putting people through on the nod and if you can drown the fuckers in evidence that your condition has worsened then you might be lucky.

You might already know this but I'll say it anyway... One of the routes to ESA is the 'non-functional descriptor' which basically says if being found fit for work would have a significant (and negative obviously) effect on your illness then you don't need to get any points on the actual descriptors. If you can produce good evidence that this has actually happened then not only should your new claim be allowed for the 'assessment phase' you should also be able to 'pass' the medical if and when it happens.

One thing does occur and that is that if you claim JSA you might get a 'disability premium' due to you being on PIP. I was getting about £105 per week on JSA (I also get lowest rate DLA) which is more than the assessment rate of ESA (and the standard rate of JSA of course) but less than the full ESA. This does mean dealing with the JSA monkeys and jumping through their idiotic hoops but you are entitled to place reasonable conditions on your 'job-search' activities in line with your health restrictions. In my brief time on JSA I had so many restrictions that I effectively ruled out almost everything.

At the moment i dont even know if i want to live that long.

Hang in there... All is not lost... Far from it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I did exactly this.

Long story short... I had a medical assessment in January or February and got zero points so got kicked off means tested ESA and had to claim JSA. I lost the plot completely and made a new claim for ESA on the basis of a worsening condition after 11 weeks. I sent in a MED3 from my GP marked "Bipolar depression worsening" and they put me back on the assessment rate which is shite but better than being kicked in the bollocks. As things turned out I won my appeal anyway but I had already been put back in the support group on my new claim without a medical.

As far as I can tell the whole system is one small step away from total collapse with medicals taking waaaaay longer than the 13 weeks they are supposed to take if they happen at all.

Yup. My medical last week was 15 months after I originally submitted my ESA form even discounting 6 weeks of that caused by their recording cock-up, that's still 13.5 months from submission to "medical assessment", and fuck knows how long a decision will take, as "anything from a week to a year" seems to be a common refrain.
Incapacity Benefit medical assessments could be a bit of an arse in terms of there being a 4-8 month lag between submitting a reassessment/renewal form and getting a date for a medical, but decisions were usually within 2-4 weeks, and you were encouraged to chase them up if you hadn't had a decision after 28 days.

If my half-baked theories are correct then the DWP are putting people through on the nod and if you can drown the fuckers in evidence that your condition has worsened then you might be lucky.

This very much appears to be the case. The more evidence you produce, the (slightly) more likely you are for them to render a favourable decision first time round.

You might already know this but I'll say it anyway... One of the routes to ESA is the 'non-functional descriptor' which basically says if being found fit for work would have a significant (and negative obviously) effect on your illness then you don't need to get any points on the actual descriptors. If you can produce good evidence that this has actually happened then not only should your new claim be allowed for the 'assessment phase' you should also be able to 'pass' the medical if and when it happens.

They tend to keep very quiet about this. I didn't bring it up with my "healthcare professional" because I didn't want to come across as "angling" toward it, but frankly any neutral assessor looking at my particular combination of problems should very quickly conclude that being found fit for work and having to fulfil the various JSA requirements would have a serious affect on my physical health, and probably lead to more short-term memory degradation - not something I'd be immensely happy about.

One thing does occur and that is that if you claim JSA you might get a 'disability premium' due to you being on PIP. I was getting about £105 per week on JSA (I also get lowest rate DLA) which is more than the assessment rate of ESA (and the standard rate of JSA of course) but less than the full ESA. This does mean dealing with the JSA monkeys and jumping through their idiotic hoops but you are entitled to place reasonable conditions on your 'job-search' activities in line with your health restrictions. In my brief time on JSA I had so many restrictions that I effectively ruled out almost everything.



Hang in there... All is not lost... Far from it.

Yup. Always worth fighting for your rights, however knackering, disheartening and downright depressing it can occasionally be. The way I look at it, those neoliberal fucks in Parliament, the yellow Tories, the blue Tories and the red Tories, they want us to not fight back, which makes me feel that it's our duty to fight back!