Apple iPhone and related items (cont.)

[editor]

Anyway, here's an interesting - and hopefully non shit - article on the battery problems and call-dropping problems that some iPhone 3G users say that they are suffering along with comment on a future power-saving chip.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/aug/21/apple.iphone?gusrc=rss&feed=technologyfull

 

[moose]

I've got a Blackberry at work and an iPhone at home and there's no appreciable difference in the way I use them or the battery life. I guess some people are just unlucky. Both generally last me 3 days or so, with fairly heavy email and moderate browsing use.

However, I do have a completely addictive Labyrinth game on the iPhone that eats battery life, so I need to restrain myself whilst I'm out and about

 

[Sunray]

Anyway, here's an interesting - and hopefully non shit - article on the battery problems and call-dropping problems that some iPhone 3G users say that they are suffering along with comment on a future power-saving chip.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/aug/21/apple.iphone?gusrc=rss&feed=technologyfull

Thats an interesting article, Apple have a the rights to change the design of the CPU. I'm fairly certain that the CPU isn't the main power draw though, so I wouldn't read much into that.

I hope that future updates will help the battery life, its its Achilles heel, but its the screen that kills the battery. Its so crisp and bright and you can browse the web like you can on a desktop, or watch movies or the BBC iPlayer if your in a wifi zone.

I can't see it getting much better what ever they do with this phone. The new one has to have a new more efficient back light couple with a better lighter more energy dense battery to improve it.

 

[Sunray]

I've got a Blackberry at work and an iPhone at home and there's no appreciable difference in the way I use them or the battery life. I guess some people are just unlucky. Both generally last me 3 days or so, with fairly heavy email and moderate browsing use.

However, I do have a completely addictive Labyrinth game on the iPhone that eats battery life, so I need to restrain myself whilst I'm out and about

Do you have an iPhone or an iPhone 3G, its the 3g thats got power problems. On the way to Endorsit, I got < 8 hours use with moderate use. I did have 3G switched on and we were moving which kills all phones. It seems better now but never gone more than 2 days with even very light use. 300 hours they say. I find that hard to believe.

 

[moose]

3G. Rarely turn 3G on, and follow all the other tips for saving battery.

 

[Sunray]

Very weird bug, switching off Wifi (even though I am not connected) makes the GPS stop working altogether or very slow. Switch it on and its really quick.

 

[moose]

here's why.

 

[Sunray]

No, I'm not connected to a wifi network when it on or off, just when the switch is off it makes the GPS go on strike.

 

[tarannau]

Grr, it's because it also uses Wi-fi signals to find your position. Turn wi-fi off and it'll take longer as a rule.

 

[Sunray]

Grr, it's because it also uses Wi-fi signals to find your position. Turn wi-fi off and it'll take longer as a rule.

Eh? Are you reading what I'm writing?

It uses GPS to find where I am and its the GPS that I am talking about. Right now I have a nice pulsing blue pin on my exact location, thats the GPS. Found me pretty quickly, less than 5 seconds. Switch off wifi and the GPS takes minutes or just gives up.

Bug.

 

[tarannau]

You don't read do you. From Moose's link:

iPhone uses signals from GPS satellites, Wi-Fi hot spots and mobile towers to get the most accurate location fast. So if you’re inside — without a clear line of sight to a GPS satellite — iPhone finds you via Wi-Fi. And if you’re not in range of a Wi-Fi hot spot,

Turn off the wi-fi and it loses one method of triangulation and takes longer.

 

[Lazy Llama]

I was wondering how it used WiFi hotspots to triangulate, as it's obviously not connecting to them, just detecting their presence and SSID.

I'm guessing that there is a database of locations of the WiFi hotspots with their SSIDs, probably built by driving around in a war-driving stylee. The iPhone connects over whatever data network it does have access to and looks that up. That would be why when I took my old access point up to my in-laws, the iPhone located me as being at my home, rather than 70-odd miles away.

All guesswork and supposition, I might have a look to see if there is any detail on how it works.

 

[Sunray]

You don't read do you. From Moose's link:



Turn off the wi-fi and it loses one method of triangulation and takes longer.

Doesn't matter. You can tell the difference between triangulation/wifi and GPS. When its not GPS it puts a ring round your location, the 2G ring is much bigger than the 3G/Wifi ring. When it gets a lock from the GPS satellites (from which it can get help from the A-GPS server) it puts a pulsing blue pin in the map. Its that last bit that that does not work properly when I switch off Wifi but only takes seconds with it switched on. Its just a bug. Gonna check if anyone has posted it on the apple forums.

FYI : It does not triangulate from Wifi base stations, the iPhone asks the A-GPS server if it knows the location of the base station from its IP address. Lots of public WiFi spots have known locations.

 

[Sunray]

I did wonder about the SSID but I remember the hotspot in Euston train station and that didn't have any location data in it. Just said BT UK Openzone. Would have to connect to ask the A-GPS server (which would get the request from the router) for the location.

I think that private Wifi would be too flaky for anything sensible location wise.

I was wondering how it used WiFi hotspots to triangulate, as it's obviously not connecting to them, just detecting their presence and SSID.

I'm guessing that there is a database of locations of the WiFi hotspots with their SSIDs, probably built by driving around in a war-driving stylee. The iPhone connects over whatever data network it does have access to and looks that up. That would be why when I took my old access point up to my in-laws, the iPhone located me as being at my home, rather than 70-odd miles away.

All guesswork and supposition, I might have a look to see if there is any detail on how it works.

 

[Lazy Llama]

Further digging reveals that it doesn't just use Wifi SSID, it uses some form of fingerprint (possibly the MAC address of the base station which, I think, is going to be visible regardless of encryption etc, tha's why iStumbler etc can tell what make an access point is without any connection). Definitely doesn't use the IP address as that would require connection to that WiFi network.

The iPhones (and iPod Touch) all use Skyhook Wireless (http://www.gpsbusinessnews.com/index.php?action=article&numero=603), who have a database of WiFi fingerprints and locations.

So that would explain why turning WiFi off would slow down location finding, as it uses the location info from Skyhook to work out roughly which GPS satellites it should be looking for.

Well, that's my take on it anyway

ETA: That also explains why my location showed up wrong when I moved my accesspoint. I changed the SSID name by adding an extra digit, but the broadcast MAC address would have stayed the same.

 

[editor]

I find the 'My Location' pseudo-GPS offered with GoogleMaps to be pretty damn accurate - and very fast.

 

[Lazy Llama]

This Apple Support thread seems to confirm that it's using MAC addresses to determine location.

 

[tarannau]

Doesn't matter. You can tell the difference between triangulation/wifi and GPS. When its not GPS it puts a ring round your location, the 2G ring is much bigger than the 3G/Wifi ring. When it gets a lock from the GPS satellites (from which it can get help from the A-GPS server) it puts a pulsing blue pin in the map. Its that last bit that that does not work properly when I switch off Wifi but only takes seconds with it switched on. Its just a bug. Gonna check if anyone has posted it on the apple forums.

FYI : It does not triangulate from Wifi base stations, the iPhone asks the A-GPS server if it knows the location of the base station from its IP address. Lots of public WiFi spots have known locations.

Grrr.

Never mind, Llama's had the patience to explain it to you.

 

[Sunray]

I've always got a connection to their servers, its actually pretty hard to not have a data connection with this phone. Since the 2.0.2 update the 3G speed is near Wifi like.

Thats why the blue pin thing not happening is weird. Remember that that blue pin is the proper GPS locking on and its not related to Wifi or triangulation. Once it does you can walk about and the pin moves about on the map. A Wifi is to say 20m or so and will give you a blue ring.

Further digging reveals that it doesn't just use Wifi SSID, it uses some form of fingerprint (possibly the MAC address of the base station which, I think, is going to be visible regardless of encryption etc, tha's why iStumbler etc can tell what make an access point is without any connection). Definitely doesn't use the IP address as that would require connection to that WiFi network.

The iPhones (and iPod Touch) all use Skyhook Wireless (http://www.gpsbusinessnews.com/index.php?action=article&numero=603), who have a database of WiFi fingerprints and locations.

So that would explain why turning WiFi off would slow down location finding, as it uses the location info from Skyhook to work out roughly which GPS satellites it should be looking for.

Well, that's my take on it anyway

ETA: That also explains why my location showed up wrong when I moved my accesspoint. I changed the SSID name by adding an extra digit, but the broadcast MAC address would have stayed the same.

 

[Lazy Llama]

Thats why the blue pin thing not happening is weird. Remember that that blue pin is the proper GPS locking on and its not related to Wifi or triangulation. Once it does you can walk about and the pin moves about on the map. A Wifi is to say 20m or so and will give you a blue ring.

Here's a test. Put it in Airplane mode, and turn off Wifi and then try to find your location. The only way it has of doing it then is by GPS (without A-GPS). If you don't get a blue dot, it's not able to do true GPS. In my office, it starts with a cell area, shrinks to a smaller WiFi area and won't go all the way to a blue dot as I'm indoors.

If you're in a building or close to a tall building, you'll usually be unable to get a true GPS lock, so you'll get Wifi/Cell best-guess. Turn off WiFi and the phone has to use cell area which is bigger.

It then uses the cell or Wifi location to feed the A-GPS so that real GPS locks faster, if it can find it - "enhances the startup performance of a GPS satellite-based positioning system". If it doesn't have the Wifi info, it'll be slower.

 

[Sunray]

Not sure what that demonstrates, because without the A-GPS server, it doesn't know the the satellites to use or is able to use flaky GPS info. Both enhance the GPS lock.

Just sitting there doing nothing.

I reckon its a bug with the wifi positioning code, because like you say it does appear to do the search in 2g/3g/wifi/GPS order, getting progressively more accurate. I reckon it ask for Wifi information and doesn't check its switched off so just sits there and never gets to the GPS code.

When I got it this app didn't really work at all. In Airplane mode, doesn't lock, well not locked in 5 minutes. I'm on the 4th floor of a building in Archway. I can see all of London out my window.

Switched it all back on, the 1st location was somewhat inaccurate, then the GPS locked and its got me spot on. 10 seconds.

There are no Wifi networks in range for me.

 

[editor]

Sadly, cut and paste has been and gone on the iPhone:

Well, that didn't take long. As soon as people started to get excited about open-source OpenClip, and its ability to bring copy-and-paste functionality to the iPhone, Apple found a way to shut it down with its 2.1 firmware.

Of course, OpenClip is open source, and perhaps enterprising developers will find a way around the 2.1 firmware. Or maybe (gasp!) Apple will actually deliver the copy-and-paste functionality many have demanded.

But for now, its ClosedClip, not OpenClip. Even communities must apparently bow to Apple. Code is law, to borrow Larry Lessig's phrase, and Apple controls the iPhone code.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10025034-16.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

 

[Sunray]

Its not something I often desire or need on the iPhone. It sounds like a huge omission, but very rarely do you need it. The big issue with cut and paste is selecting text with your finger. Its going to be a fiddly thing to do.

You do get the real feeling that they didn't want fiddly when they made it.

 

[Jonti]

It's a practical reality that Apple does control the IP code. If you use your phone in a way Jobs dislikes, or put software on it that it not to his taste, the Apple Corporation reserve "the right" to brick your phone.

Seems wrong to me. If it's my gadget, I get to decide what code I run on it.

Things are likely to change within a year or so, when the OpenHandsetAlliance's Android platform starts hitting the market.

 

[Sunray]

It's a practical reality that Apple does control the IP code. If you use your phone in a way Jobs dislikes, or put software on it that it not to his taste, the Apple Corporation reserve "the right" to brick your phone.

Seems wrong to me. If it's my gadget, I get to decide what code I run on it.

Things are likely to change within a year or so, when the OpenHandsetAlliance's Android platform starts hitting the market.

Its nowhere near as good though from the emulator I've looked at on the SDK.

Seems to be lacking a decent lead developer.

 

[editor]

Its not something I often desire or need on the iPhone.

Each to their own, but I'm regularly copying details from texts and emails across to each other or into my Memo Pad, or copying details/addresses from web pages to add to my notes or to send on to friends, or copying and pasting serial numbers and passwords into webpages.

 

[Jonti]

Its nowhere near as good though from the emulator I've looked at on the SDK.

Seems to be lacking a decent lead developer.

I'm cautiously optimistic that it will lead to some kind of mobile internet device for handheld audio and video communications that I'll actually want to have (one I can integrate into other, previously existing, data systems).

To the extent that it's a regular software project, I suppose your comment is fair. Google would be that lead developer. But, as I understand it, the idea is not so much to produce a particular product, as to open up the field of internet phones to open competition on the interface and software level.

If it comes off, it should be very good news for end users!

 

[Sunray]

Each to their own, but I'm regularly copying details from texts and emails across to each other or into my Memo Pad, or copying details/addresses from web pages to add to my notes or to send on to friends, or copying and pasting serial numbers and passwords into webpages.

Ahh, see I don't use it for email. That's not why I bought it, I bought it because its an iPod with a phone bolt on. Not sure I could be bothered typing loads of text. Keyboard is good but not that good.

I can see some hand wringing at Apple trying to find a solution to select the text accurately and easily with your finger while retaining that distinctive iPhone ease of use. Quite a challenge for Apple and why its not there now.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Its not something I often desire or need on the iPhone. It sounds like a huge omission, but very rarely do you need it. The big issue with cut and paste is selecting text with your finger. Its going to be a fiddly thing to do.

You do get the real feeling that they didn't want fiddly when they made it.

I survived a year without it on my n73, now have a Centro and have used it...er...twice. And one was only to memorise the shortcuts. Really don't see why the lack of C+P on the iPhone is considered such a major flaw.

 

[editor]

I can see some hand wringing at Apple trying to find a solution to select the text accurately and easily with your finger while retaining that distinctive iPhone ease of use. Quite a challenge for Apple and why its not there now.

How hard can, "tap on the word once to select, keep on tapping to select next words along and then hold for the copy/paste menu" be?

It's easy to tap select on Palm/WM phones already - no stylus needed!

Really don't see why the lack of C+P on the iPhone is considered such a major flaw.

It very much depends how much of a power user you are. If you're a business dude on the road, I imagine you'd always be needing to copy over contacts, memos, web details etc to email/text, Word docs etc.

I use copy and paste just about every day.