Apparently, Feminism is dead!!!

[littlebabyjesus]

There's also, not surprisingly, a correlation between sexual conservatism (prudishness) and disapproval of prostitution. From reading the statements by proponents of this law, who stress the moral aspect and state categorically that prostitution is an act of violence towards women by men, which is the justification for the criminalisation of buying sex, this confirms the impression I have that many people's views on this are influenced by a certain feeling of disgust they feel towards prostitution. There does seem to be a rather Christian attitude here towards saving fallen women (whether they want to be saved or not!).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Meanwhile, looking at New Zealand, from what I'm reading there definitely does appear to have been some improvement. And interestingly, legalisation hasn't resulted in an increased number of prostitutes, suggesting that criminalisation may not have much effect on the amount of prostitution that takes place.

This article covers a report on the results of legalisation. As you'd expect, it hasn't led to paradise but it has led to improvements in the conditions for the (unchanging number of) sex workers. But there are cautious statements of optimism from sex workers themselves. Such as:

Other findings included that the majority of sex workers felt the act could do little about violence that occurred, although a significant majority felt there had been an improvement since the passing of the act.

However, this seems important:

More than 60 per cent felt they were more able to refuse to provide commercial sexual services to a particular client since the enactment of the law.

In other words the act has empowered the women involved.

As Edie said, surely New Zealand's experience here is very important. Legalisation doesn't lead to any noticeable increase in prostitution, but it does help those involved in it. This has to be the way forward, imo.

There is a crucial difference here between Sweden and New Zealand. We know how prostitutes in New Zealand are treated. It can be monitored. We don't know how prostitutes in Sweden are treated. It cannot be monitored. Sod Swedish puritanism. Regardless of your views on the morality of prostitution, the Swedish approach stinks.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There's also, not surprisingly, a correlation between sexual conservatism (prudishness) and disapproval of prostitution. From reading the statements by proponents of this law, who stress the moral aspect and state categorically that prostitution is an act of violence towards women by men, which is the justification for the criminalisation of buying sex, this confirms the impression I have that many people's views on this are influenced by a certain feeling of disgust they feel towards prostitution. There does seem to be a rather Christian attitude here towards saving fallen women (whether they want to be saved or not!).

Of course, the whole "feeling of disgust" toward prostitution is an issue in itself, born as it often is from individuals manifesting an internal conflict between their moral imperatives and their sex drives.

 

[Random]

Just in: a case that further illustrates the Swedish state's attitude towards prostitutes. Several Romanians were deported a while ago for prostitution. Now since selling sex isn't a crime, there's no real legal basis for this. One of the women complained to the Ombudsman for justice and the decision came out a few minutes ago: http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=104&artikel=5332363

"EU:s så kallade rörlighetsdirektiv ger kvinnan rätt att vistas i Sverige och det är inte olagligt att sälja sex, men JO menar att kvinnans sätt att försörja sig förutsatte att andra skulle begå brott och att avvisa henne kan därför ses som en brottsförebyggande åtgärd."

Meaning that although the women are free to enter Sweden, due to EU freedom of movement laws, and it's not illegal to sell sex, the Ombudsman says that the way the woman is financially supporting herself depended on other people committing a crime, and so deporting her could be seen as a crime prevention measure.

This clearly shows that laws that target sex-buyers are also very easy to use to victimise sex-sellers.

 

[phildwyer]

There does seem to be a rather Christian attitude here towards saving fallen women (whether they want to be saved or not!).

I don't think many opponents of prostitution consider themselves Christian these days. I suspect most of them consider themselves atheists.

 

[phildwyer]

You're wondering if prostitution has been eradicated? Do you really need me to answer that? And even if it is a policy does the fact that said policy hasn't been acheived after 6 years mean it's to be criticised or eschewed simply on the basis that it hadn't yet been achieved?

No. But it is certainly to be criticized and eschewed on the basis that it is completely impossible.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't think many opponents of prostitution consider themselves Christian these days. I suspect most of them consider themselves atheists.

Perhaps. It's quite possible to be an atheist but also to be suffused in an essentially Christian sense of morality/guilt complex.

 

[phildwyer]

Perhaps. It's quite possible to be an atheist but also to be suffused in an essentially Christian sense of morality/guilt complex.

Not sure why you single out Christianity though. Of all the major religions, it goes out of its way to embrace prostitutes--Magdalen and all that--and originally at least it did so in a remarkably radical and progressive manner.

 

[cesare]

Perhaps. It's quite possible to be an atheist but also to be suffused in an essentially Christian sense of morality/guilt complex.

And it is in the context of Sweden. Not big on church going/professed faith, but quite high on Lutheran attitude.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not sure why you single out Christianity though. .

Because Sweden is a country with a Christian history. And many Swedes, whether they are believers or not, will have attitudes that reflect that.

I might be overstating its importance in this, but reading some of the statements by those who made this Act happen in Sweden, the moral justification strikes me. Prostitution is morally wrong, and so it must be banned regardless of the consequences of banning it. It's the kind of approach to law that a certain kind of hang em/birch em British Tories have.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

originally at least it did so in a remarkably radical and progressive manner.

How many Christians actually believe what Jesus is said to have believed, though? I don't want to generalise too much, but I'll quote Kurt Vonnegut on this - 'I have no problem with Jesus; it's Christians I take issue with'. Christianity has been a vehicle for patriarchal, conservative sexual mores for centuries.

 

[cesare]

Not sure why you single out Christianity though. Of all the major religions, it goes out of its way to embrace prostitutes--Magdalen and all that--and originally at least it did so in a remarkably radical and progressive manner.

If I'd have been Magdalen I'd have been fucking livid that they hadn't included my gospel and wrote my apostleship or whatever it's called out of history.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This clearly shows that laws that target sex-buyers are also very easy to use to victimise sex-sellers.

That's depressing but not surprising, really. You can't say it's ok to sell something but criminal to buy it. That's an inherently ludicrous position in the end - either the transaction is legal or it isn't. And Sweden does seem to be edging towards criminalising selling sex too now.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

You can't say it's ok to sell something but criminal to buy it.

Yes you can. If you regard a transaction or interaction as exploitative, or in some other way unbalanced, it is entirely possible and logically consistent to make acting as the person on one end of the transaction illegal only. It's not necessarily a good idea, but there's nothing inconsistent about it, nor is it unique to prostitution.

There are an incredible number of disingenuous arguments in this thread. There's another above from someone saying that "it's impossible" to eradicate prostitution, which whether true or not is about as relevant as saying that it's impossible to eradicate murder or assault, as if the rate at which either happened couldn't be influenced. Again, that doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good idea to try.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes you can. If you regard a transaction or interaction as exploitative, or in some other way unbalanced, it is entirely possible and logically consistent to make acting as the person on one end of the transaction illegal only. .

But in doing that, you are basically infantilising one half of the transaction. In this context, I find this rather objectionable. If an adult has sex with a minor, quite rightly, it is the adult who is breaking the law, but not the child. This law treats women in the same way as the law about the age of consent treats children. It does the opposite of the New Zealand approach - it disempowers the women involved.

It is ludicrous, imo, unless you treat the women involved as helpless victims, which is unbelievably patronising. But as that judgement Random quoted above shows, the law in Sweden isn't quite treating the women involved as helpless victims - it's actually being used as a stick with which to beat immigrants.

I didn't have particularly strong feelings about this either way before I started looking into it. Now, I do - I think this is nasty stuff that ought to be vigorously opposed.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

But in doing that, you are basically infantilising one half of the transaction.

It can be infantilising, certainly, but it is not inherently infantilising to do so. Is it infantilising to make it illegal to purchase a kidney but not to sell one?

 

[ViolentPanda]

If I'd have been Magdalen I'd have been fucking livid that they hadn't included my gospel and wrote my apostleship or whatever it's called out of history.

That cunt Peter would probably have patted you on the head and asked you to go make a cup of tea, then have tried to sneak into your boudoir on account of how if you were good enough for Jesus...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not sure why you single out Christianity though. Of all the major religions, it goes out of its way to embrace prostitutes...

For all those who ever wondered why dwyer sticks up for Christianity...

 

[cesare]

That cunt Peter would probably have patted you on the head and asked you to go make a cup of tea, then have tried to sneak into your boudoir on account of how if you were good enough for Jesus...

It was that cunt Peter that had the hissy fit about her being elevated, iirc.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It was that cunt Peter that had the hissy fit about her being elevated, iirc.

Typical act of a bloke who's failed to score with his dead mate's missus. What a petulant wanker, eh?

 

[cesare]

Typical act of a bloke who's failed to score with his dead mate's missus. What a petulant wanker, eh?

He just wanted to be in charge, I reckon.

 

[phildwyer]

If I'd have been Magdalen I'd have been fucking livid that they hadn't included my gospel and wrote my apostleship or whatever it's called out of history.

It didn't make it into the Bible, but it certainly wasn't written out of history. The Gospel of Magdalen is a key text of Gnosticism, and well worth a read too:

http://gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm

 

[ViolentPanda]

He just wanted to be in charge, I reckon.

Not enough bottle to be the "big man" when it meant having the courage of your convictions, though.

How many times did he deny Jesus, again?

 

[phildwyer]

From the Gospel of Magdalen, chapter 9:

3) Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things.
4) He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us?
5) Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior?
6) Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered.
7) Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.
8) But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well.
9) That is why He loved her more than us.

 

[cesare]

It didn't make it into the Bible, but it certainly wasn't written out of history. The Gospel of Magdalen is a key text of Gnosticism, and well worth a read too:

http://gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm

I know about the gnostic gospels (although probably not as much as I should). But her gospel not making it into the Bible had the same effect as writing her out of history in terms of her non-heretical religious importance ... And hence what is commonly taught to most Christian believers.

 

[cesare]

Not enough bottle to be the "big man" when it meant having the courage of your convictions, though.

How many times did he deny Jesus, again?

Thrice, I think.

 

[phildwyer]

I know about the gnostic gospels (although probably not as much as I should). But her gospel not making it into the Bible had the same effect as writing her out of history in terms of her non-heretical religious importance ... And hence what is commonly taught to most Christian believers.

Yes, but Gnosticism always remained an underground influence, both inside and outside the official church. And within that tradition, Magdalen was always vitally important.

As an aside, most orthodox Christians (at least Catholics) don't grasp the extent to which Peter is a villain even in canonical Christianity. He makes a twit of himself in the debate with Paul about the need to adhere to Jewish ritual law, among other things.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thrice, I think.

What a cowardly arse-covering wanker he was.

 

[cesare]

Yes, but Gnosticism always remained an underground influence, both inside and outside the official church. And within that tradition, Magdalen was always vitally important.

As an aside, most orthodox Christians (at least Catholics) don't grasp the extent to which Peter is a villain even in canonical Christianity. He makes a twit of himself in the debate with Paul about the need to adhere to Jewish ritual law, among other things.

Aye well, it really wouldn't suit the Church for them to know/grasp/question/veer into heresy.

 

[Random]

And Sweden does seem to be edging towards criminalising selling sex too now.

Don't say that based on cases like the one I've posted up. The state approach to prostitution is heavily influenced by one strand of feminism, and is ostensibly about protecting women; any move to criminalise "the prostituted" women would meet heavy opposition from elements of the establishment.