Apparently, Feminism is dead!!!

[Fedayn]

Aye, the complaints about their ability to sell their flats at a later date, their concern about wanting to be in a nice area, even though that area was already 'well known' as well as it can be if you get me, for that part of life.

I agree entirely, but that wasn't the big concern of those in Leith, it was, overwehlmingly, concerns about their new neighbourhood, a nice re-developed beighbourhood, being so terribly besmnirched, and their house prices falling.

 

[equationgirl]

I agree entirely, but that wasn't the big concern of those in Leith, it was, overwhelmingly, concerns about their new neighbourhood, a nice re-developed neighbourhood, being so terribly besmirched, and their house prices falling.

Aye, it was very much 'we'll have none of your sort round here'. And as for Salamander Street being well lit, never heard such bollocks. It's a horrible dark street.

 

[weepiper]

Aye, it was very much 'we'll have none of your sort round here'. And as for Salamander Street being well lit, never heard such bollocks. It's a horrible dark street.

It's a bloody industrial estate through-road. Coburg Street was right by the docks, almost public. Much safer for the women I'd have thought.

 

[cesare]

So did the SPP get their wish of eradication?

 

[Fedayn]

So did the SPP get their wish of eradication?

Strange question.

 

[cesare]

Strange question.

You said that was their policy. I was wondering if it worked.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

You said that was their policy. I was wondering if it worked.

You weren't really.

But as rhetorical questions go, it doesn't have much impact as the SSP were never anywhere near power and so their position, good, bad or indifferent, was never tested. It makes as much sense as asking "did it work" when some left group advocates decriminalisation.

 

[Fedayn]

You said that was their policy. I was wondering if it worked.

You're wondering if prostitution has been eradicated? Do you really need me to answer that? And even if it is a policy does the fact that said policy hasn't been acheived after 6 years mean it's to be criticised or eschewed simply on the basis that it hadn't yet been achieved?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I had a fight with an arsehole at work today because he said that women can't do the same jobs as men. I told him my cousin in bomb disposal would love to discuss that with him, and he just said 'yes but the infantry have to go and protect her, if she gets shot they're biologically determined to look after her first before a male soldier.' Cock.

Tell him that biological determinism is the last refuge of idiots, eugenicists and, in this case, people who don't understand how the military functions. Infantry do what they're designated to do. If they were ordered to stand to while a female BDO worked they'd stand to. Simple as that.
Fuck, can't believe anyone who gets beyond GCSE biology can buy into biological determinism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It can be a bit 'have you heard about a man called Trotsky?'

Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Aye, it was very much 'we'll have none of your sort round here'.

I'm sure that we're all united in our general willingness to tut-tut at gentrifying yuppies, but in my experience, horny handed sons and daughters of toil probably aren't any keener on living in a red light district. Albeit their complaints are less likely to be listened to.

 

[Fedayn]

I'm sure that we're all united in our general willingness to tut-tut at gentrifying yuppies, but in my experience, horny handed sons and daughters of toil probably aren't any keener on living in a red light district. Albeit their complaints are less likely to be listened to.

Absolutely

 

[cesare]

You weren't really.

But as rhetorical questions go, it doesn't have much impact as the SSP were never anywhere near power and so their position, good, bad or indifferent, was never tested.

I was actually. I'd have been surprised if the answer was yes, granted, but if it's completely impossible surely they'd have just been laughed at for even advocating it.

I know nothing about the SPP or whether or not they've ever been in power. It was just a question.

 

[cesare]

You're wondering if prostitution has been eradicated? Do you really need me to answer that? And even if it is a policy does the fact that said policy hasn't been acheived after 6 years mean it's to be criticised or eschewed simply on the basis that it hadn't yet been achieved?

No need to answer it. Nigel has.

Edit: I had a look just now, there were three separate conversations over the road btw, and I didn't post on any of them No idea why. Good to refresh my memory of the discussions though.

 

[equationgirl]

It's a bloody industrial estate through-road. Coburg Street was right by the docks, almost public. Much safer for the women I'd have thought.

It is - there's more police cars driving by, more traffic, more chance of witnesses if something were to happen. A very different environment to Salamander Street.

It's not so much about yuppies and gentrification, it's more about not showing respect for the area one is moving into. And that includes the working girls - they were there first.

 

[equationgirl]

Tell him that biological determinism is the last refuge of idiots, eugenicists and, in this case, people who don't understand how the military functions. Infantry do what they're designated to do. If they were ordered to stand to while a female BDO worked they'd stand to. Simple as that.
Fuck, can't believe anyone who gets beyond GCSE biology can buy into biological determinism.

He claims his mate works on bomb disposal also, and that's where he got his information from.

I've had much more sensible discussions with former armed forces people, those who actually know how things work and why, for example, there were no female submariners until very very recently.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16088431

 

[weepiper]

Everyday Sexism's response to the Netmums' survey here, btw

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...re-are-more-of-us-than-you-think-8254767.html

 

[cesare]

Everyday Sexism's response to the Netmums' survey here, btw

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...re-are-more-of-us-than-you-think-8254767.html

I saw that earlier ... those comments! The "coddled sex".

Edit: just looked at the link again and many of the more unpleasant comments have been removed.

 

[Edie]

Everyday Sexism's response to the Netmums' survey here, btw

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...re-are-more-of-us-than-you-think-8254767.html

From the poster "Mens Rights"

Regarding your belief that getting up early in the morning and cooking for your brother constituting a kind of privilege for him shows your utter ignorance about the other side of life as to how men are made and forced to protect and provide women and societies, pay alimonies and maintenance to women.​

 

[Fedayn]

No need to answer it. Nigel has.

Edit: I had a look just now, there were three separate conversations over the road btw, and I didn't post on any of them No idea why. Good to refresh my memory of the discussions though.

Yeah, one is linked in the debate I was referring to.

 

[cesare]

Yeah, one is linked in the debate I was referring to.

Yep, apologies, I was well tired last night and still struggling with this bug. I left it till this morning and went to have a look.

 

[Fedayn]

No probs at all.

 

[weepiper]

I think my Adblock is blocking the comments cos I can't see any by the sound of things maybe I should leave it that way

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Been doing a bit of digging to see if there is decent info about the results of Sweden's anti-punter law, and it doesn't seem that there is. Rather worryingly, the authorities seem to simply point to the reduction in the number of street workers as a result of the law and not to have bothered themselves with much beyond that. That strikes me as the worst kind of populist politics - look at our lovely prossie-free streets, aren't we great. There does appear to be evidence, however, that prostitution has simply switched over to the internet. And this is what I find most disturbing about the new law:

Pye Jakobson leads the National Alliance for Sex and Erotic Workers, which has lobbied for sex workers' rights and campaigned internationally against the Swedish model recently adopted by Norway and Iceland. She says the Swedish approach puts prostitutes in danger and pushes them further toward the margins of society.
Antipimping provisions make it illegal for prostitutes to share apartments, which would increase their safety, Ms. Jakobson says. Compared with other European countries, there is also a marked absence of other harm-reduction measures, such as distributing condoms and deploying outreach workers in red-light areas.
"The whole attitude is that harm reduction would mean recognizing prostitution," she says. "But this law violates sex workers' human rights – their right to earn a living and to safe, healthy working conditions.

Source

This seems to me to be the inevitable consequence of the 'prohibitionist' stance - it's illegal, you shouldn't be doing it, and so we don't provide any support to people doing it because they shouldn't be. It's very analogous to the futility of the 'war on drugs'. It doesn't take people as they are, but as you think they should be, and when they fail to live up to that ideal, what is the response? All too predictably, the response has been a call for tougher laws and longer prison sentences. Just as with the 'war on drugs', the laws aren't working, so you toughen the laws. The new tough laws don't work either, so you toughen them again. And again the laws don't work... And the tougher the laws, the more stigmatised and vulnerable people involved become.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I have the following articles from 2010-2011 on .pdf:

'Attitudes and perceptions about legislation prohibiting the purchase of sexual services in Sweden'. European Journal of Social Work
'Gender Equity and Prostitution-An Investigation of Attitudes in Norway and Sweden'. Feminist Economics
'Sweden's prohibition of purchase of sex-The law's reasons, impact, and potential'. Women's Studies International Forum
'The Swedish Law that Prohibits the Purchase of Sexual Services'. Swedish Ministry of Industry, EMployment and Communications.

If anyone would like copies, PM me an e-mail address. Total size is about 1.1mb.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ta for those vp. Just read the abstracts of the first two. I'm slightly dubious of the following in the first one:

When it comes to the purchase of sex, the responses indicated that the number of customers has, as a result of the legislation, decreased somewhat.

Fewer than half the questionnaires they sent out were returned, and given that paying for sex is now a criminal act, I would suspect that some men would be reluctant to admit to it. However, it wouldn't surprise me if these laws had led to a reduction in prostitution. That doesn't mean they have led to a reduction in harm, of course.

The second survey is interesting in that it confirms the unlikely alliance that has been created on this issue between conservatives and a certain strand of feminism:

Findings include that men and sexual liberals of either gender are more likely positive toward prostitution and men and women who are conservative or support gender equality are more negative.

This:

Holding anti-immigration views correlates with more positive attitudes toward buying, but not selling, sex.

simply confirms what I would expect - that many anti-immigration types are ignorant bigots.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

simply confirms what I would expect - that many anti-immigration types are ignorant bigots.

And also the converse: That people who think it's ok to buy sex are more likely to anti-immigrant bigots.

 

[Edie]

Been doing a bit of digging to see if there is decent info about the results of Sweden's anti-punter law, and it doesn't seem that there is. Rather worryingly, the authorities seem to simply point to the reduction in the number of street workers as a result of the law and not to have bothered themselves with much beyond that. That strikes me as the worst kind of populist politics - look at our lovely prossie-free streets, aren't we great. There does appear to be evidence, however, that prostitution has simply switched over to the internet. And this is what I find most disturbing about the new law:



Source

This seems to me to be the inevitable consequence of the 'prohibitionist' stance - it's illegal, you shouldn't be doing it, and so we don't provide any support to people doing it because they shouldn't be. It's very analogous to the futility of the 'war on drugs'. It doesn't take people as they are, but as you think they should be, and when they fail to live up to that ideal, what is the response? All too predictably, the response has been a call for tougher laws and longer prison sentences. Just as with the 'war on drugs', the laws aren't working, so you toughen the laws. The new tough laws don't work either, so you toughen them again. And again the laws don't work... And the tougher the laws, the more stigmatised and vulnerable people involved become.

Thanks for that lbj xx

VP I'd like em. I'll PM you x

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And also the converse: That people who think it's ok to buy sex are more likely to anti-immigrant bigots.

You missed out a bit. There is as correlation with thinking it's ok to buy sex but disapproving of selling sex. Of course, correlation does not equal causation, but I'd suggest that the tendency towards this particular attitude - ok for men to buy sex, not ok for women to sell sex - is caused by bigoted attitudes.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

You missed out a bit.

No, I didn't. Thinking its ok to buy sex correlates with anti-immigrant prejudice. Thinking its ok to sell sex does not.