Angel pub on Coldharbour Lane becomes arty community space run by Brick Box

[ViolentPanda]

hmm, i should perhaps have read that back before posting it, as it doesn't read very clearly. but i'm sure you can udnerstand it.

Looks fine to me, old son.

 

[teuchter]

you have a very weird notion of what inclusivity is. a two tiered entry for rich and poor may mean that poor people can come in and enjoy some of the experience, but it doesn;t make it anything other than elitist. you're deliberate misrepresenting the reality that the experience is geared towards the wealthy.

part of the problem, of course, is that Rosie is clearly a nice person. She's clearly well-meaning, and probably thinks just like you teuchter, that simply doing a one-package-for-the-rich and an economy package so that the plebs can afford to come and join in after the nosh isn't actually inclusive, it's actually a bit patronising. secondly, inviting anyone to put on stuff in their space is great. but that in itself really is only providing a space to existing arty types, who are overwhelmingly middle-class cool art student hipster types around here. so, oh no, we end up with wanky stuff and an increased feeling of exclusion by local groups. you and she both lack a deeper picture in understanding social exclusion. however, what Rosie has that you don't have is the chance to do something about that. She can reach out to local community groups and put on events that positively encourage people to do art (something that seems to be happening a little already, albeit overwhelmingly in the village so not really the wider community but a start); she can offer to space to be used by people who teach art so that they can do it for free or cheap, they can do free displays, they can work with schools, with outreach organisations (cos there are dozens of hostels and old people's groups and MH organisations who would love an arts group to come into their organisations etc) and so on and so on. so she can do some good. whereas i imagine you'll just continue to spend your time trying to find ways of making the editor look bad on the internet. which, btw, traditionally doesn't do one's mental health any good.

You make a lot of assumptions about what I do or don't understand about the concept of inclusivity. Like I already said, some of the criticism I agree with.
The point is when editor talks about an "exclusive £40" night it's clearly intended to be read (by someone that hasn't followed the whole thread) as meaning a night where you can only get in for £40. I take all your points about how a two-tiered price system could end up excluding people. I would say it depends how it's organised. If it's a bunch of people living it up at a table eating a fancy meal while the £5 people get to sit in the corner then of course that's not an inlusive event. On the other hand if there's a meal earlier in the evening, then afterwards a bunch of other entertainment comes as a late-night event open to everyone for £5 then that's rather different is it not?
I don't know exactly how the format of these nights has been arranged because I've not been to one and neither has Editor. Nevertheless he persists in deliberately representing it as an exclusive event for the wealthy with no acknowledgement of the £5 element. All I ask is that people can make their minds up about Brick Box based on accurate information rather than supposition and editor's particular spin on things presented as fact.

If you look back through the thread you'll see that (possibly due to an inaccurate BBC report) people were under the impression that the events at the Angel are being funded with public money. When Brick Box clarified that they aren't, I'd say that was a fairly critical piece of information. Surely you'd agree that a supper club funded by public grant money is a very different thing from a supper club run by volunteers and an external organisation with their own funding methods. But editor still refers to an organisation funded with publc money, when talking about the supper club. He can claim that technically he wasn't lying because BB have recieved public funding in the past...but the intention was clearly to insinuate that public funding had been used to subsidise the £40 events.

Could it be seen as insensitive to hold a faux-Victorian supper club in that particular location? Maybe - it's debateable. Does it justify deliberately representing the facts about that event? Of course not.

Anyway I'll certainly agree that trying to have a sensible discussion about anything withmthe edtor is not good for anyone's mental health.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's a good reasoned post with salient criticism wrt to brickbox. I, at least partly, agree. I fail to see why Editor shouldn't be challenged on what he posts here, same as anyone else. I don't think anyone needs to, or is, 'trying' to make him look bad. I do agree that engaging is bad for one's mental health after a while.

As for the general gentrification that's not something you can pin on brickbox any more than you or me. I own but although I'm not as affected as someone who is actually having to move out of the area that doesn't mean I'm indifferent. Far from it.

In fact as an owner you may, in the short to middle term, find yourself contemplating moving, if history repeats itself in terms of property prices.

 

[editor]

Anyway I'll certainly agree that trying to have a sensible discussion about anything withmthe edtor is not good for anyone's mental health.

You just can't leave out the personal insults, can you?

 

[el-ahrairah]

It's a good reasoned post with salient criticism wrt to brickbox. I, at least partly, agree. I fail to see why Editor shouldn't be challenged on what he posts here, same as anyone else. I don't think anyone needs to, or is, 'trying' to make him look bad. I do agree that engaging is bad for one's mental health after a while.

As for the general gentrification that's not something you can pin on brickbox any more than you or me. I own but although I'm not as affected as someone who is actually having to move out of the area that doesn't mean I'm indifferent. Far from it.

i'm all in favour of challenging editor and do it myself. it's just that teuchter is actually deliberately missing the point and accusing editor of saying things he didn't.

re: gentrification, fair play. you don't seem as angry as many others tbh.

 

[Crispy]

You just can't leave out the personal insults, can you?

Saying that arguing with you drives one mad is not an insult.

 

[quimcunx]

In fact as an owner you may, in the short to middle term, find yourself contemplating moving, if history repeats itself in terms of property prices.

Do you mean because prices will go up? I bought more than 10 years ago and it has trebled in value. I've not moved yet.

Of course it's possible I'll move at some point. Who knows how changes in Brixton and in me might lead to that happening.

 

[el-ahrairah]

teuchter, i might be making assuptions about what you know about social inclusion, but i have to based upon your posts. because you give no sign of understanding and are doing exactly the same thing you accuse editor of, i.e. misrepresentation and twisting the argument.

 

[editor]

Saying that arguing with you drives one mad is not an insult.

Constantly misrepresenting my views and calling me a liar certainly is.

 

[teuchter]

See, thing is, a lot of people who came to Brixton in the '80s and '90s, even the early 2000s, they didn't come here to change the place, they came to enjoy it in all its' ragged glory, and because it was damn cheap and very cheerful. Problem is that maybe a "critical mass" of change has been reached, and those arriving now aren't here to enjoy what we love, but rather to be "sightseers" to a representation of Brixton that suits their sensibilities, rather than "the real thing". Brixton started really changing fast 30 years ago, but the artistic communities and the squatters added to the communities, rather than taking. As the money has got bigger, though, there's been a whole lot more taking, and not a lot of adding to the communities, except insofar as "posh developments" constitute "closed communities", anyway.

as someone who moved here in 1999 this is a fairly accurate description of how I feel about things.
But at the same time I can't help wondering if we are being rather generous to ourselves in the distinction we draw between 'us' and the current nu-Brixton 'them'.

 

[teuchter]

teuchter, i might be making assuptions about what you know about social inclusion, but i have to based upon your posts. because you give no sign of understanding and are doing exactly the same thing you accuse editor of, i.e. misrepresentation and twisting the argument.

What do you think I've misrepresented?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you mean because prices will go up? I bought more than 10 years ago and it has trebled in value. I've not moved yet.

Of course it's possible I'll move at some point. Who knows how changes in Brixton and in me might lead to that happening.

What I mean is that with some areas (I've seen in happen in parts of Battersea and Clapham, bits of east London, and in other cities) sometimes prices rise so precipitously on the heels of "fashion" (for want of a better word) that it can make more sense to sell and move than to stay, especially when the price difference can be so local that you only need move a mile or two, IYSWIM.

 

[quimcunx]

i'm all in favour of challenging editor and do it myself. it's just that teuchter is actually deliberately missing the point and accusing editor of saying things he didn't.

re: gentrification, fair play. you don't seem as angry as many others tbh.

I don't think he has.

I'm not that given to outbursts of anger. That said I haven't been able to watch the news since the ConDems got in because I can't afford to buy a new telly every time I put a shoe through it.

 

[snowy_again]

Constantly misrepresenting my views and calling me a liar certainly is.

Diddums. You're doing exactly the same with BB; repeatedly stating that they're a 'publicly funded organisation'* and that to access their 'publicly funded exclusive events' you have to pay the £40 entrance fee, which isn't true. Complaining about their blacked out windows - even though it was pointed out that to replace a large pane of glass is beyond their current financial position.

You seem to want to ignore all the explanations that have been given; and all the while stating that most of their web presence / SEO is through here and in essence putting out incorrect information on them, even after you've been corrected.

* which they are, but NOT for the Angel project, as been pointed out several times.

 

[ViolentPanda]

as someone who moved here in 1999 this is a fairly accurate description of how I feel about things.
But at the same time I can't help wondering if we are being rather generous to ourselves in the distinction we draw between 'us' and the current nu-Brixton 'them'.

The way I see it, as someone who's spent most of their life (bar, I think, about 3 years) within a 3-4 mile radius of central Brixton, I'm not so sure it's "generous" as much as "honest", if only because for most "earlier arrivals", the main motive for moving here wasn't fashionability (horrible word, but aposite, I think), but rather utility. Did you come here expecting a fully-grown cultural experience of the type "nu Brixton" is being sold? I mean, you may have visited the area before you moved here and thought "great clubs!", but you weren't having a whole cultural package set out before you, and these new folk are. They're coming here expecting a "scene" rather than creating one.
I suppose I see them as (to be ineffably poncey) a form of modern flaneur, moving through spaces, but not of them, interested only in the spectacle.

 

[quimcunx]

What I mean is that with some areas (I've seen in happen in parts of Battersea and Clapham, bits of east London, and in other cities) sometimes prices rise so precipitously on the heels of "fashion" (for want of a better word) that it can make more sense to sell and move than to stay, especially when the price difference can be so local that you only need move a mile or two, IYSWIM.

True. I suppose if that happened it would be logical for me to assess my situation, same as we all do in changing climates. I'm not very inclined that way however, through laziness and risk aversion.

 

[el-ahrairah]

What do you think I've misrepresented?

oh good grief...you had better be trolling.

 

[ddraig]

so you're one of those that can dish it out but not take it eh!

 

[editor]

Diddums. You're doing exactly the same with BB; repeatedly stating that they're a 'publicly funded organisation'* and that to access their 'publicly funded exclusive events' you have to pay the £40 entrance fee, which isn't true. Complaining about their blacked out windows - even though it was pointed out that to replace a large pane of glass is beyond their current financial position.

You seem to want to ignore all the explanations that have been given; and all the while stating that most of their web presence / SEO is through here and in essence putting out incorrect information on them, even after you've been corrected.

* which they are, but NOT for the Angel project, as been pointed out several times.

But it's THE SAME PEOPLE. The Brick Box run the Angel and the Brick Box has enjoyed substantial public funding. It's the same people, the same organisation using the same resources and sharing the same website. It's utterly ridiculous and disingenuous to suggest that the ventures aren't one and the same.

 

[ViolentPanda]

True. I suppose if that happened it would be logical for me to assess my situation, same as we all do in changing climates. I'm not very inclined that way however, through laziness and risk aversion.

Risk aversion is sensible.

 

[el-ahrairah]

i actually heard editor having an aneurysm, and i'm in north london.

 

[snowy_again]

You haven't a clue have you.

(in response to #1128)

 

[Dan U]

my impression was that the £40 stuff was cross subsidising the rest of the project, not the other way round.

 

[snowy_again]

When they get a grant for say, work in Tooting, all of that money has to be spent on work. In Tooting.
They're given money to deliver specific outputs (tasks, workshops, training events, exhibitions related to the Tooting project).

It cannot be used to subsidise or deliver new work in Brixton. So public money is not going to deliver £40 (or in actual truth £5 events with an option of buying dinner at the same time for that £40) events.

If they did, the funder could ask for their money back and/or chose not to fund them again.

 

[Dan U]

When they get a grant for say, work in Tooting, all of that money has to be spent on work. In Tooting. They're given money to deliver specific outputs (tasks, workshops, training events, exhibitions related to Tooting).

It cannot be used to subsidise or deliver new work in Brixton.

If they did, the funder could ask for their money back and/or chose not to fund them again.

i think this is the bit that's got lost in the noise

there are a lot of valid criticisms on this thread but this one about the grants is borderline accusing them of misappropriation of funding

 

[teuchter]

oh good grief...you had better be trolling.

I'll plead guilty to occasional childish troublemaking/provocation but I don't think I'm guilty of editor-style misrepresentation of facts.

 

[teuchter]

The way I see it, as someone who's spent most of their life (bar, I think, about 3 years) within a 3-4 mile radius of central Brixton, I'm not so sure it's "generous" as much as "honest", if only because for most "earlier arrivals", the main motive for moving here wasn't fashionability (horrible word, but aposite, I think), but rather utility. Did you come here expecting a fully-grown cultural experience of the type "nu Brixton" is being sold? I mean, you may have visited the area before you moved here and thought "great clubs!", but you weren't having a whole cultural package set out before you, and these new folk are. They're coming here expecting a "scene" rather than creating one.
I suppose I see them as (to be ineffably poncey) a form of modern flaneur, moving through spaces, but not of them, interested only in the spectacle.

Yeah I basically agree with this I guess.

 

[CH1]

http://clitorarty.wordpress.com/cuntcraft/

Editor doesn't want that kind of thing in Brixton though because it might offend "families and religious people".

I'm sure there are some pagans who would LOVE it. They're religious too.

 

[CH1]

Do you mean because prices will go up? I bought more than 10 years ago and it has trebled in value. I've not moved yet. Of course it's possible I'll move at some point. Who knows how changes in Brixton and in me might lead to that happening.

It's always location, location, location. Those of us "lucky" to come into the basked gloryzone that is going to surround Brixton Square will obviously be able to cash in and move to Gh. Ng . or somewhere else cheap - meanwhile investing our ill-gotten gains on the money market.
I can't believe my luck. Here I was with no pension - made unemployed in 2010 with barely a year's salary as compensation. Had the letter from DWP saying no pension for YOU till 2020 matey.
Then along comes Mrs Thatcher's favourite builder - and some dodgy dealing on Lambeth Council.
Don't expect any more acidic comments from me about Barratt Homes - I've seen the light!

 

[killer b]

re: the £40 supper club thing, in case anyone missed it:

The 40 pound tickets you mention is chosen by the supper club chefs. We don't take any money from them but let them use a part of our space

my understanding of the saltoun supper club is that it's a tiny 'restaurant' run out of someone's living room in brixton, which sells out months in advance. so, chances are the attendees on the night weren't 'pals' of the brick box people, but were more likely sourced from the supper club's own mailing list. as to how many of them are locals i don't know, but it seems a shame to begrudge a local business the opportunity to spread their wings a bit. and rather than the 40 quid funding the other activities at the venue, it seems they aren't making anything...