Angel pub on Coldharbour Lane becomes arty community space run by Brick Box

[ddraig]

fair few people seem to be blindly defending them (unless they're not being honest about connections) where there are valid criticisms.
fair play to Brickboxer for putting their case, we'll see how it goes

 

[quimcunx]

So you don't think their real world behaviour - you know, the blacked out windows, the toff-tastic private £40 supper club jaunts, the shite about hanging out with street drinkers, zero local advertising, the 'cunt' show, and the lack of meaningful engagement with the immediate community - may have played any part in how opinions were subsequently formed?

I'm indifferent to them. Like many things in Brixton/anywhere they're not particularly my thing. Neither are cooltan, squatting Mass, dominoes, Tesco, offline, churches or one o'clock clubs. I don't accuse them of shutting me out though. They are there for who wants them.

There are probably things brickbox could do better with regard to their stated aims but they're just starting in this venue.

This thread is far from a good example to set them of meaningful engagement. Any nubs of valid points you have get lost in the OTT rhetoric.

See this is to me is the first time you've expressed your valid opinions about BB without sounding like Disgusted from Tonbridge Wells, and leaping from one bit of fauxrage to another.

Agreed.

I enjoy reading Urban a lot. But threads like this make me realise how bipolar U75 can be. Here we have knee-jerk hostility to what some perceive as genrtrifying poshness (which it may be, but who am I to judge when I have not personally been to any of their exhibitions) and within the same breath shun Nandos chicken for not serving organic free range chicken and because "shit people eat there". Go figure.

Well it's hard to remember that it's made up of different people with different opinions sometimes, but yes, it can be/seem contradictory. Individuals often are anyway so it's not really a surprise that a site of this size is too.

 

[quimcunx]

Many people who comment on gentrication are part of the gentrification process. We're a bunch of hypocrites really. Moving to Brixton and then slagging off anyone else who moves in years later. I'm thinking of all the hipster comments on here, not just the Brickbox issue.

I expect you're getting a right slagging off on some Deptford based forum right now.

I'd tend to agree tbh.

For me there's two different objections to this sort of thing - there's serious points about the nature and impact of gentrification, which is a complex and important subject, and there's 'I don't like them because they're posh/hipsters/cunts/whatever.' The second one might not be entirely unjustified but it destroys much hope of discussing the first properly.

well put.

 

[teuchter]

Has anyone mentioned the £40 to get in (that you don't actually have to pay to get in) yet?

 

[killer b]

i dunno, but there's been a lot of mention of 'hoity-toity'. whatever that means.

 

[Yelkcub]

There's a mainly of lot of inverse snobbery. The rest just seems determination to back it up. But they blacked out the windows! Perfectly valid reason given but it's raised as a criticism again afterwards with no acknowledgement of that. But it was £40! Apart from when it was a fiver.

 

[editor]

There's a mainly of lot of inverse snobbery. The rest just seems determination to back it up. But they blacked out the windows! Perfectly valid reason given but it's raised as a criticism again afterwards with no acknowledgement of that. But it was £40! Apart from when it was a fiver.

If you think an open and inclusive community arts centre should come with permanently blacked out windows, no local advertising whatsoever, no engagement with the local community whatsoever, semi-secret 'debauched' £40 supper clubs for their in-the-know pals, and a £5 night about 'cunts', then we'll have to agree to disagree on that definition.

Sorry, but I think there's no excuse at all for them refusing to out up even a poster advertising their "community" arts events. It just makes it feel like they're not interested in locals getting involved and want to keep it that way, so if there's any 'snobbery' going down, it's not from me.

 

[Yelkcub]

If you think an open and inclusive community arts centre should come with permanently blacked out windows, no local advertising whatsoever, no engagement with the local community whatsoever, semi-secret 'debauched' £40 supper clubs for their pals, and £5 nights about 'cunts', then we'll have to agree to disagree on that definition.

Sorry, but I think there's no excuse at all for them refusing to out up even a poster advertising their "community" arts events. It just makes it feel like they're not interested in locals getting involved and want to keep it that way, so if there's any 'snobbery' going down, it's not from me.

What's the obsession with the windows? They've explained and the explanation is completely understandable.

I missed the nights about 'cunts' - where's that bit?

I'd say of people running a £40 do, making it available for £5 would very much suggest they were trying to make it widely affordable/available, wouldn't you?

 

[gabi]

I think she did say earlier that your suggestion of putting up posters in the windows was a good one and something she was going to do

 

[quimcunx]

There's a mainly of lot of inverse snobbery. The rest just seems determination to back it up. But they blacked out the windows! Perfectly valid reason given but it's raised as a criticism again afterwards with no acknowledgement of that. But it was £40! Apart from when it was a fiver.

..and apart from when it was free.


Can you show me the bit where they refused to put up a poster?

 

[editor]

I missed the nights about 'cunts' - where's that bit?

I don't imagine the local community would have found this £5 event too inclusive, but it doesn't matter what they think because they weren't invited anyway.

CuntCraft with The ClitorARTy in London!!
Cuntcraft hits London!
We invite you to join us on 23rd June at 8pm for an evening of cunty creativity, poetry and performance as part of Exhibition SW9 in Brixton
http://clitorarty.wordpress.com/2012/06/15/hello-world/

 

[ddraig]

yeah...but...like....if they didn't like it they should've gone to the door and asked for the luvvely welcoming people inside to send a representative out and i'm SURE a compromise would've been found and they would probably, i mean most certainly, clear a bit of the grime of the window so they could catch a glimpse of another world inside.
so there! or something

 

[editor]

Can you show me the bit where they refused to put up a poster?

Oh are we getting into semantics now? The lack of local advertising has been brought up many times, right from the start of this thread. BB appear to have read this thread and there's still no advertising up so that's the conclusion I'm drawing. Sorry if it doesn't chime with yours.

But let's try another tack: could you tell me what steps BB has made to actively engage the local community* since they took over the building several months ago?

(*as in people living in the local vicinity, not the Villaaage People up the road)

 

[quimcunx]

Oh are we getting into semantics now?

No. We're getting into the way you consistently misrepresent and twist things. This is what consistently gets my goat and loses you any support I might have had for your basic points.

Maybe they haven't put posters up. I agree it would be better if they did. They agree it would be better to do that. But in your world they have refused!!!!

 

[teuchter]

For people who haven't read the whole thread: each time editor bangs on about the supposedly exclusive £40 nights - he is deliberately misrepresenting the reality (which has been confirmed by Brick Box several times) - on each of these nights it has been possible to get in for £5. The £40 was if you wanted food.

 

[ddraig]

doesn't negate the fact that they are doing nights with food for £40 and that appears to be more prominent than the other stuff does it?

do you want to keep going round and round?

 

[teuchter]

I missed the nights about 'cunts' - where's that bit?

Cuntcraft began in October 2010. It was a personal project that became public. We wanted to learn to love our own cunts and this meant taking to the street. We began with sketches of cunts and colouring pencils. We’d slip them into people’s pockets. We’d sneak them into pub toilets. Then we got brave. We stopped whispering and began to casually approach women to see how they felt about their cunts. We learned a lot. We got 20 gold frames from the poundshop and heaps of glitter, satin, velvet, silk and glue. We invented cunting and embroidered metres of it. We wrote poems and began to share them with other women. We got louder and prouder. Stronger and braver. We began to exhibit these framed cunts and encourage women to make their own. LOTS of women crafted their own cunt collages. Many women wrote poems. They LOVED it.​

And something beautiful would happen as soon as they would begin to create. They talked and talked and talked. Stories were told, experiences shared, advice given and heartaches exposed. Cuntaches too.​

Cuntcraft was born and has to this date, exhibited for White Night Brighton 2010 and 2011, Brighton Fringe Festival 2011 and 2012 and in celebration of International Women’s Day 2012.​

http://clitorarty.wordpress.com/cuntcraft/

Editor doesn't want that kind of thing in Brixton though because it might offend "families and religious people".

 

[teuchter]

doesn't negate the fact that they are doing nights with food for £40 and that appears to be more prominent than the other stuff does it?

do you want to keep going round and round?

What do you mean by "more prominent"?

We're only going round and round because Editor keeps repeating the same lies.

 

[ddraig]

hair splitting, righteous defender, what is in this for you?

apart from getting the digs in obviously

 

[teuchter]

hair splitting, righteous defender, what is in this for you?

apart from getting the digs in obviously

It's like quimcunx said above - to some extent I agree with some of the criticisms. I am not specifically defending Brick Box, I am defending their right to a fair hearing and editor's dishonesty really irritates me.

By the same logic what's in it for you? Whose pay are you under?

And you didn't answer my question.

 

[ddraig]

how have they not had a fair hearing?
people were passing comment on the information they had, brick box could have avoided all that by being a bit pro active to begin with no?
thankfully they've turned up and started answering questions so we'll see how it goes and if they do indeed take concerns and suggestions on board

 

[editor]

What do you mean by "more prominent"?

We're only going round and round because Editor keeps repeating the same lies.

I haven't posted any lies, and your continuing attempts to misrepresent me are a disgrace.

 

[editor]

But let's try another tack: could you tell me what steps BB has made to actively engage the local community* since they took over the building several months ago?

(*as in people living in the local vicinity, not the Villaaage People up the road)

Anyone got anything to add here?

 

[el-ahrairah]

For people who haven't read the whole thread: each time editor bangs on about the supposedly exclusive £40 nights - he is deliberately misrepresenting the reality (which has been confirmed by Brick Box several times) - on each of these nights it has been possible to get in for £5. The £40 was if you wanted food.

you have a very weird notion of what inclusivity is. a two tiered entry for rich and poor may mean that poor people can come in and enjoy some of the experience, but it doesn;t make it anything other than elitist. you're deliberate misrepresenting the reality that the experience is geared towards the wealthy.

part of the problem, of course, is that Rosie is clearly a nice person. She's clearly well-meaning, and probably thinks just like you teuchter, that simply doing a one-package-for-the-rich and an economy package so that the plebs can afford to come and join in after the nosh isn't actually inclusive, it's actually a bit patronising. secondly, inviting anyone to put on stuff in their space is great. but that in itself really is only providing a space to existing arty types, who are overwhelmingly middle-class cool art student hipster types around here. so, oh no, we end up with wanky stuff and an increased feeling of exclusion by local groups. you and she both lack a deeper picture in understanding social exclusion. however, what Rosie has that you don't have is the chance to do something about that. She can reach out to local community groups and put on events that positively encourage people to do art (something that seems to be happening a little already, albeit overwhelmingly in the village so not really the wider community but a start); she can offer to space to be used by people who teach art so that they can do it for free or cheap, they can do free displays, they can work with schools, with outreach organisations (cos there are dozens of hostels and old people's groups and MH organisations who would love an arts group to come into their organisations etc) and so on and so on. so she can do some good. whereas i imagine you'll just continue to spend your time trying to find ways of making the editor look bad on the internet. which, btw, traditionally doesn't do one's mental health any good.

 

[el-ahrairah]

hmm, i should perhaps have read that back before posting it, as it doesn't read very clearly. but i'm sure you can udnerstand it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If I was opening a new business in Brixton, I would actively avoid promoting it on the urban75 forums.

That's only because you know everyone would turn up to rob you blind.

 

[el-ahrairah]

Many people who comment on gentrication are part of the gentrification process. We're a bunch of hypocrites really. Moving to Brixton and then slagging off anyone else who moves in years later. I'm thinking of all the hipster comments on here, not just the Brickbox issue.

we are, i've thought about it a lot. we're the vanguard of gentrification, helping to make an area safe and cool for the yuppies who were once dismissive or scared of it.

but hell, that gives us every right to be annoyed when we're priced out of the very market we love. i've noticed that the sliding scale of annoyance at the yuppification of the area does have those who own their own homes at the 'unconcerned' end. they're here, they're not going to priced out of their own community, and they may even end up making a profit out of it. those of us who only see our rents rise aren't really able to take it with such a pinch of salt and detach so much. if brixton wasn't such a great place to live i wouldn't give a fuck about all the yuppies coming here and changing things and pricing me out, but there you go.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'd tend to agree tbh.

For me there's two different objections to this sort of thing - there's serious points about the nature and impact of gentrification, which is a complex and important subject, and there's 'I don't like them because they're posh/hipsters/cunts/whatever.' The second one might not be entirely unjustified but it destroys much hope of discussing the first properly.

The problem being that the two are thoroughly intertangled, especially in London, given the unaffordability of housing. Of course, things aren't helped by developments like Brixton Villaage actively cultivating a "hipster" or "crypto-hipster" customer base.
As for "I don't like them...", the animosity doesn't tend to be personal, but rather based on what previous waves of incomers have done/changes they've caused. Gentrification is a progressive project. Each phase builds on the last, and as many "locals" (by which I don't just mean those born round here, but those who've settled here and acclimatised to the locale, rather than expecting the locale to change to suit them!) are well aware, each phase makes their Brixton less a place and more a memory, and not in the way "natural demographic change" does, either.

 

[ViolentPanda]

we are, i've thought about it a lot. we're the vanguard of gentrification, helping to make an area safe and cool for the yuppies who were once dismissive or scared of it.

but hell, that gives us every right to be annoyed when we're priced out of the very market we love. i've noticed that the sliding scale of annoyance at the yuppification of the area does have those who own their own homes at the 'unconcerned' end. they're here, they're not going to priced out of their own community, and they may even end up making a profit out of it. those of us who only see our rents rise aren't really able to take it with such a pinch of salt and detach so much. if brixton wasn't such a great place to live i wouldn't give a fuck about all the yuppies coming here and changing things and pricing me out, but there you go.

See, thing is, a lot of people who came to Brixton in the '80s and '90s, even the early 2000s, they didn't come here to change the place, they came to enjoy it in all its' ragged glory, and because it was damn cheap and very cheerful. Problem is that maybe a "critical mass" of change has been reached, and those arriving now aren't here to enjoy what we love, but rather to be "sightseers" to a representation of Brixton that suits their sensibilities, rather than "the real thing". Brixton started really changing fast 30 years ago, but the artistic communities and the squatters added to the communities, rather than taking. As the money has got bigger, though, there's been a whole lot more taking, and not a lot of adding to the communities, except insofar as "posh developments" constitute "closed communities", anyway.

 

[quimcunx]

hmm, i should perhaps have read that back before posting it, as it doesn't read very clearly. but i'm sure you can udnerstand it.

It's a good reasoned post with salient criticism wrt to brickbox. I, at least partly, agree. I fail to see why Editor shouldn't be challenged on what he posts here, same as anyone else. I don't think anyone needs to, or is, 'trying' to make him look bad. I do agree that engaging is bad for one's mental health after a while.

As for the general gentrification that's not something you can pin on brickbox any more than you or me. I own but although I'm not as affected as someone who is actually having to move out of the area that doesn't mean I'm indifferent. Far from it.