Anelka's quenelle

[phildwyer]

Also its well patronising to say black and Muslim people cant be far right

It's the way they hog the passing lane I don't like.

 

[frogwoman]

TBF, the ed would have been better coming over all Nietzschean, and saying "G-d is dead", instead, because that is the case for some people - that G-d is dead to them.

There's no proof he or she exists - that's what faith is all about, that you believe he exists, you have faith and you trust that he's there. There's also no proof he doesn't exist.

 

[Edie]

TBF, the ed would have been better coming over all Nietzschean, and saying "G-d is dead", instead, because that is the case for some people - that G-d is dead to them.

I don't believe in God, the bastard

 

[phildwyer]

I'm a bit confused as to why people are still trying to put positive interpretations on what he did despite his own words on the topic and despite the evidence

His own words deny the charges against him.

The "evidence" against him consists entirely of symbols, pictures and images.

The belief that politics can be determined by symbols, pictures and images is dangerous, and historically associated with Fascism.

 

[MellySingsDoom]

It's the way they hog the passing lane I don't like.

Football passing? Car lane passing? Big Black have just the song for you:

 

[phildwyer]

'I ask people not to be duped by the media'

Nobody's ever a racist these days

Nobody's ever duped by the media these days.

 

[frogwoman]

'I'm doing this salute in solidarity with diCanio with his accusations of fascism and it's nothing to di with Nazism, I'm reaching up to the sky'

 

[Wilf]

He did indeed. I wonder how the FA are getting on with their crash course in modern French culture.

Took them a while to get to grips with Uruguayan cultural niceties.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't believe in God, the bastard

'God doesn't exist. Fuck you, God '

 

[LiamO]

hang on a minute, i never said this was just some dolphin whimsy

I never said you did mate.

I just pointed out that the metaphor outlined above by BA was new to me.

 

[DotCommunist]

I don't believe in God, the bastard

I've been told I am reading it wrong but I thought Nietzches declamation of the death of god refered to the death of non materialism in human beings.

 

[phildwyer]

maybe leftist opposition to the state of isreal ought to adopt a different term other than 'anti-zionism' seeing as it is so loaded now?

Or maybe anti-Zionist opposition to the state of Israel ought to adopt a different term from "Leftist," seeing as how nobody knows what it means any more?

 

[frogwoman]

Nobody's ever duped by the media these days.

That's probably true actually

 

[J Ed]

That's probably true actually

People think they aren't, which makes it just as bad I think. Maybe worse.

 

[J Ed]

His own words deny the charges against him.

The "evidence" against him consists entirely of symbols, pictures and images.

The belief that politics can be determined by symbols, pictures and images is dangerous, and historically associated with Fascism.

Cool, no one on earth is a fascist then except those who explicitly say that they are in the media. Why are you so fucking dense

 

[frogwoman]

People think they aren't, which makes it just as bad I think. Maybe worse.

No, some people think they aren't but everyone else is (not mentioning any names)

 

[butchersapron]

Pity, we could have had a decent and much needed discussion of the growth of influence of third-position fascism across europe - esp in Italy and France, the cultural front approach it's key proponents have consciously adopted, how it fed off simple anti-americanism post-911, how it's increasingly integrated organisationally with the official far-right and is providing much of the base for the latters electoral succcess, how it appeals to the young (though not just the young - witness Alain Delon's now open far-right politics, and Depardieu's calling himself a Communist then leaving France for Putin's Russia spouting far-right nonsense as he goes), how it helps undermine and colonise (physically and intellectually) anti-austerity or anti-capitalist movements, bit of historical comparisons with periods in which it last found widespread influence (chaotic weimar germany) and what happened to that influence and why. That sort of thing.

 

[phildwyer]

Cool, no one on earth is a fascist then except those who explicitly say that they are in the media. Why are you so fucking dense

Why do you make up ridiculous statements and imply that they come from me?

 

[J Ed]

The real fascists are the ones who identify fascists as fascists

 

[phildwyer]

Pity, we could have had a decent and much needed discussion

But now we can't.

Cos I'm here.

No, don't apologize, I know that's what you meant.

Well in that case I'll go somewhere my wisdom is properly appreciated. Your round Pickman's.

 

[Edie]

I've been told I am reading it wrong but I thought Nietzhes declamation of the death of god refered to the death of materialism in human beings.

I've never read Nietzhe.

Also, this stuff about God existing if people believe in him is a load of rubbish. God either exists or he doesn't. His existence can hardly be dependant on human belief

 

[DotCommunist]

Pity, we could have had a decent and much needed discussion of the growth of influence of third-position fascism across europe - esp in Italy and France, the cultural front approach it's key proponents have consciously adopted, how it fed off simple anti-americanism post-911, how it's increasingly integrated organisationally with the official far-right and is providing much of the base for the latters electoral succcess, how it appeals to the young (though not just the young - witness Alain Delon's now open far-right politics, and Depardieu's calling himself a Communist then leaving France for Putin's Russia spouting far-right nonsense as he goes), how it helps undermine and colonise (physically and intellectually) anti-austerity or anti-capitalist movements, bit of historical comparisons with periods in which it last found widespread influence (chaotic weimar germany) and what happened to that influence and why. That sort of thing.

well throw a bone- I know v little of european politics but I do keep something of an eye. This one- how would FN compare and contrast with UKIP, both in terms of electoral clout and message? It was a weird question that ambushed me at 3 am a few weeks ago. Electoral clout is one thing I know to say they are noway near FN. Policies and links to new rightist..well I don't know

 

[Limerick Red]

His own words deny the charges against him.

The "evidence" against him consists entirely of symbols, pictures and images.

The belief that politics can be determined by symbols, pictures and images is dangerous, and historically associated with Fascism.

Mr Marjoram of the British National Party said yesterday: ‘To have all this fuss over a golliwog is a travesty.’

 

[frogwoman]

Pity, we could have had a decent and much needed discussion of the growth of influence of third-position fascism across europe - esp in Italy and France, the cultural front approach it's key proponents have consciously adopted, how it fed off simple anti-americanism post-911, how it's increasingly integrated organisationally with the official far-right and is providing much of the base for the latters electoral succcess, how it appeals to the young (though not just the young - witness Alain Delon's now open far-right politics, and Depardieu's calling himself a Communist then leaving France for Putin's Russia spouting far-right nonsense as he goes), how it helps undermine and colonise (physically and intellectually) anti-austerity or anti-capitalist movements, bit of historical comparisons with periods in which it last found widespread influence (chaotic weimar germany) and what happened to that influence and why. That sort of thing.

New thread?

 

[ViolentPanda]

butchers is astonishingly clever but he can be a *right* cunt if you won't agree with him.

I'm not sure that's true. What he tends to get irate at is shite arguments. I've never seen him have a go at someone purely for not agreeing with him, but I've seen plenty of instances where someone makes a crap "common-sense" argument, and he then tears them a new one. Some people take terrible offence when they get called on a bad argument and their own daftness gets highlighted to themselves and the rest of the Urban-reading public, other people learn from their mistakes, and tighten up their arguments.

He doesn't care about upsetting people to make a point which I despise sometimes. And leads to a lot of people kissing his arse. I dislike that more tbh. He's infuriatingly right often though, specially if you read shit back a while after, but fuck me at the time it can be like fighting a cryptic crossword with a hate grudge.

But is it worth it, in the end, if you come out the other end with a better grasp of your own argument, and of other peoples' arguments? Me, I'd say it is, and that a lot of offence-taking by posters is ego-driven - if something is worth knowing, then the fact that you feel the person giving you the knowledge is an abrasive git is secondary to the knowledge gained.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm not sure that's true. What he tends to get irate at is shite arguments. I've never seen him have a go at someone purely for not agreeing with him, but I've seen plenty of instances where someone makes a crap "common-sense" argument, and he then tears them a new one. Some people take terrible offence when they get called on a bad argument and their own daftness gets highlighted to themselves and the rest of the Urban-reading public, other people learn from their mistakes, and tighten up their arguments.




But is it worth it, in the end, if you come out the other end with a better grasp of your own argument, and of other peoples' arguments? Me, I'd say it is, and that a lot of offence-taking by posters is ego-driven - if something is worth knowing, then the fact that you feel the person giving you the knowledge is an abrasive git is secondary to the knowledge gained.

Yep, I disagree with butchers on a few things I'm sure but that's pretty much what I think, he's sound as fuck IMO. I've learnt a shitload from him, you and other 'aggressive' posters and let's face it we often have a reason for being aggressive on here.

 

[Wilf]

Also its well patronising to say black and Muslim people cant be far right and are just like some innocent little creatures. .

Again, that nails it. 'Forgive them Football Association, they know not what they do'.

 

[DotCommunist]

But is it worth it, in the end, if you come out the other end with a better grasp of your own argument, and of other peoples' arguments? Me, I'd say it is, and that a lot of offence-taking by posters is ego-driven - if something is worth knowing, then the fact that you feel the person giving you the knowledge is an abrasive git is secondary to the knowledge gained.

on the matter of internet arguments I was told 'always know and have references for your argument before you engage that way you cannot lose'

but you can. Some bastards always got a contention, a mum cuss or has read something you have not.

 

[Wilf]

Pity, we could have had a decent and much needed discussion of the growth of influence of third-position fascism across europe - esp in Italy and France, the cultural front approach it's key proponents have consciously adopted, how it fed off simple anti-americanism post-911, how it's increasingly integrated organisationally with the official far-right and is providing much of the base for the latters electoral succcess, how it appeals to the young (though not just the young - witness Alain Delon's now open far-right politics, and Depardieu's calling himself a Communist then leaving France for Putin's Russia spouting far-right nonsense as he goes), how it helps undermine and colonise (physically and intellectually) anti-austerity or anti-capitalist movements, bit of historical comparisons with periods in which it last found widespread influence (chaotic weimar germany) and what happened to that influence and why. That sort of thing.

Excellent post.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Anelka has explicitly said it was neither racist nor anti-semitic.

"I ask people not to be duped by the media. And of course I am neither anti-Semite nor racist."

Nasri has explicitly stated the same.

"The pose in the picture i posted over 2 months ago symbolises being against the system. Its has absolutely nothing to do with being anti semitic or against jewish people"

Are their claims tenable, though?
Just because someone claims something, doesn't automatically make it so.