Advice on going from keto to plant based/carbs?

[Karl Masks]

I'm going to assume one ought do this slowly, even though my diet isn't beef butter and machismo.

Been listening to a lot of Dr Michael Greger and my gut could certainly benefit from some healing. However prior to going keto/low carb (no idea if i'm in Ketosis or ever was) I would get hypoglycemia often and it's not fun feeling hungry and shaky half an hour after a breakfast of a bowl of oats and banana. I couldn't snack on fruit.

Anyone else made this transition?

 

[kalidarkone]

You can buy sticks to wee on that will tell you if you are in ketosis.

 

[gentlegreen]

My one bit of advice is to make your carbs complex and don't give up healthy fats.
I eat beans every day and rarely eat grains these days.
Hopefully one day soon my activity level will justify the bread and brown rice I might like to eat.

My breakfast bread was always offset in glycaemic terms by peanut butter, but I've divided the 500kcals by 4.

 

[Karl Masks]

You can buy sticks to wee on that will tell you if you are in ketosis.

Did that years ago. Im not sure it's a particularly accurate or useful measure of anything. Im not even sure the benefits of ketosis at this point tbh

 

[gentlegreen]

I was reminded again thanks to the radio that the famed Inuit had a genetic adaptation that meant they probably weren't actually often in ketosis

 

[Karl Masks]

My one bit of advice is to make your carbs complex and don't give up healthy fats.
I eat beans every day and rarely eat grains these days.
Hopefully one day soon my activity level will justify the bread and brown rice I might like to eat.

My breakfast bread was always offset in glycaemic terms by peanut butter, but I've divided the 500kcals by 4.

I used to eat complex carbs. Indeed it's long standing dietary wisdom that complex carbs provide slow release of energy to keep you going. I didn't experience that, however I could have been doing it wrong. I was no expert.
I eat foods like flax and oily fish. I would like to cut back on the latter because I eat a LOT of them. So fats come from ostensibly healthy sources. But still all low carb. I would like to be able to eat some bread beans and grains

 

[Karl Masks]

I was reminded again thanks to the radio that the famed Inuit had a genetic adaptation that meant they probably weren't actually often in ketosis

I tihnk a lot of the claims made about such communities is probably bunk. Apparently the Masai drink milk and were held up as paragons by the carnivore nutters, despite their massive aehtersclerosis (the Masai, not the carnivores - for now at least)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Regularly getting hypos is not a good sign. It might be worth going to the doctor about that. It may be an indication of an undiagnosed problem. In the long term, a fluctuating blood sugar level takes its toll on the body.

 

[gentlegreen]

You've probably seen this video ...
They get into philosophy about whether the insulin response needs to be exercised.... in fact I now realise it's where I heard about the Inuit...

My only experiences with hypos was back in the bad old days when I was at least 30 kilos overweight and thought fruit juice was suitable fuel for cycling... I bonked badly several times. tens of miles from home.
And then after I'd started to give my liver a break after I'd been precipitously labelled "diabetic" ...and I was seeking the perfect low GI breakfast fuel and for some reason, whole wheat berries in vanishingly small quantities would hit me like a train an hour or so after eating them.

As I said, I have always found a modest amount of bread with peanut butter did the trick for me for breakfast - and now that I no longer cycle to work every day and still need to lose 10 kilos, I have whittled that right down to not much more than a taste .. - but I'm probably compensating elsewhere for the 350 calorie reduction with extra tahini and flax ...

I pretty well only eat one meal a day now - largely to limit how many calories I can get down my neck ...

At this point in my life it's all about trying to make the final sustainable adjustment to my caloric intake - I only need to drop 100kcals a day, but that would take 2 years to lose the weight so I've been averaging a 200kcal deficit to try to get it done this year... so I've been aiming for satiety - high protein, limited easy carbs and sugar ... I'm 20 kilos lighter than my last high HBa1c

In my planned future life I hope to be less restrictive and more intuitive - with masses more attractive exercise opportunities to burn off any extra...

We are of course all different ...

 

[Karl Masks]

Regularly getting hypos is not a good sign. It might be worth going to the doctor about that. It may be an indication of an undiagnosed problem. In the long term, a fluctuating blood sugar level takes its toll on the body.

this was years ago, and I did. They just said, "eat complex carbs", giving me a diagnosis of 'functional' hypoglycemia. That was that until i discovered keto.

 

[Karl Masks]

You've probably seen this video ...
They get into philosophy about whether the insulin response needs to be exercised.... in fact I now realise it's where I heard about the Inuit...

My only experiences with hypos was back in the bad old days when I was at least 30 kilos overweight and thought fruit juice was suitable fuel for cycling... I bonked badly several times. tens of miles from home.
And then after I'd started to give my liver a break after I'd been precipitously labelled "diabetic" ...and I was seeking the perfect low GI breakfast fuel and for some reason, whole wheat berries in vanishingly small quantities would hit me like a train an hour or so after eating them.

As I said, I have always found a modest amount of bread with peanut butter did the trick for me for breakfast - and now that I no longer cycle to work every day and still need to lose 10 kilos, I have whittled that right down to not much more than a taste .. - but I'm probably compensating elsewhere for the 350 calorie reduction with extra tahini and flax ...

I pretty well only eat one meal a day now - largely to limit how many calories I can get down my neck ...

At this point in my life it's all about trying to make the final sustainable adjustment to my caloric intake - I only need to drop 100kcals a day, but that would take 2 years to lose the weight so I've been averaging a 200kcal deficit to try to get it done this year... so I've been aiming for satiety - high protein, limited easy carbs and sugar ... I'm 20 kilos lighter than my last high HBa1c

In my planned future life I hope to be less restrictive and more intuitive - with masses more attractive exercise opportunities to burn off any extra...

We are of course all different ...

I watched that clip a few days agao. I like the plant chompers videos, but he isn't without his own flaws. He's quite correct in calling out the likes of Nina Teicholz with her Big Fat Surprise book for example. Yet here he repeats, without evidence, a claim made in a book by a 'neuro nutritionist' (is that a thing, it may well be) that keto is bad for the brain. If that claim is true it needs to be accompanied by evidence. Sadly, unless I missed the citiation, it wasn't.

And this is the problem. Keto doesn't have to be all stupid people eating sticks of butter and nothing but beef.

 

[newme]

Did that years ago. Im not sure it's a particularly accurate or useful measure of anything. Im not even sure the benefits of ketosis at this point tbh

Ketosis does have benefits, some people take this way too far tho and claim its like a magic pill. Those pee sticks are universally decided as crap on every keto group I've been on. I did do keto for 3-4 years and it was very useful for me, controlled hunger, lost weight, more energy, tho that's likely from less weight and more exercise rather than ketosis.

I just found it easier to maintain than other diets.

 

[Karl Masks]

Ketosis does have benefits, some people take this way too far tho and claim its like a magic pill. Those pee sticks are universally decided as crap on every keto group I've been on. I did do keto for 3-4 years and it was very useful for me, controlled hunger, lost weight, more energy, tho that's likely from less weight and more exercise rather than ketosis.

I just found it easier to maintain than other diets.

I'm not entirely clear on the purpose of ketosis. It's never really been something i've seen adequately explained. It is thus implied that, if you cut carbs but remain outside ketosis, you are harming yourself, or starving yourself. I have no idea if this is true, or what the magic macros are meant to be either way. Is there a safe minimum of carbs for people outside of ketosis, or do you have to go full high carb or high fat in order to not die!

 

[newme]

20g carbs or under generally keeps you in ketosis. Depends on body type, weight and exercise. Idk what they are on about with harming yourself by just reducing carbs a bit but not to ketosis levels. Load of bollocks.

Fat keeps you full, but is not a target
Protein is a target to hit
Carbs are kept under 20g as a general rule.

There's calculators out there to work out macros for you. Most people fail at micronutrients tho. Potassium and magnesium are hard to get without a supplement or huge piles of very particular veg which makes it iffy for the carbs. Its not a diet you can just jump into, i researched for months before starting , nor is any other really but people do it anyway.

Magnesium you can get a supplement, Potassium is easiest to switch to lo salt or low sodium salt. Because its basically 50/50 potassium salts and sodium salts. Infact looking at most diets they have deficiencies in these. Not getting enough magnesium and potassium is where people say they have 'keto flu' what they actually have is a mineral deficiency.

Ketosis has benefits from autophagy, as far as I can tell. I'm not a scientist in this area but it seems to be accepted. The most beneficial thing I found was I started eating in this way and then didn't need breakfast, soon I didn't need lunch either. Then I could make a huge feast for dinner and still lose weight. I did make a lot of bulk "stew" type foods. Bad description but meat, low carb veg and flavouring in a slow cooker. Tho this covered chili's, curries of hundreds of types, etc etc

Low carb is a diet that also works and is basically exactly what people have informed you is damaging. That's usually 20-100g a day and is people bulking nutrients up via veg/berries to help them not be deficient.

You fairly quickly get into the idea of what works for you. I also took the route of least resistance, so if there was a birthday or Christmas or dinner out (not often for me) then I just had whatever I wanted and started again the next day. People seemed to also do a week, ser the water weight drop off then complain it didn't continue at the same rate in week 2... obviously did not read up enough first. 1-2lbs a week is pretty much the max after that as your body doesn't magically remove anything.

It is still calorite restriction (tho some argue this isnt necesary), just one where you don't feel hungry and can eat the tasty fatty stuff. Tracking macros is useful if you are not getting the results but marking every ingredient isn't really something that's required once you skip the obvious things like bread, potatoes, other root veg, pasta, rice etc.

 

[furluxor]

Never done keto but I've switched from regular vegetarian to pb/carbs three years ago and I've got a lifetime history of hypoglycemia.

Regarding volatile blood sugar, only three things worked for me:
1) Three meals a day with something eaten at least every 4 hours. When I can't face solid food for breakfast, I just have a smoothie.
2) A good source of protein at every meal, whenever possible. It takes time to learn how to sneak it into stuff but it's very doable. Protein = feeling full.
3) Keeping off sweets. So this is hard. Zero is the best (instead eating what Dr Greger calls 'nature's candy' - fruit). I've managed to cut down to one sweet treat per week and I feel so much better but it still unbalances my blood sugar somewhat, especially if it's very sweet. When making sweets at home, I cut 30%-50% of the sugar in the recipe. The taste buds adjust, now when eating out I'm less keen on 'triple rainbow indulgence cakes', more subtle stuff appeals more.

Re plant-based aspect: I found that learning to cook good vegan food needs a total paradigm shift. If you treat it as an exclusion diet, trying to 'veganise' omni/vegetarian food, you'll always feel like the poor cousin. Most vegan recipes out there (including by celebrity chefs) are not very good. Your meals will suck for a while but it's a fantastic way to eat once you work it out. You wouldn't want to go from keto to 'carb loading', balance with protein instead.

 

[Idaho]

it's not fun feeling hungry and shaky half an hour after a breakfast of a bowl of oats and banana

I had the same! Bananas and wheat trigger this reaction in me. Although at the time I didn't really identify the full problem. I ended up constantly hungry, constantly craving carbs and put on a lot of weight. Hair was falling out and my mind was a foggy mess and I'd be shaking like a shitting dog an hour after meals. GPs advice was to "just eat normally"

This was about 15 years ago when there wasn't much discussion of this stuff. After a long period of time wandering through the wilderness of quackery and excluding stuff randomly from my diet, I have settled on what works for me. Keto worked really well to shift the carb cravings and rapidly improve insulin sensitivity, but for various reasons I don't try and maintain continual ketosis.

I've found that being very low carb in the morning (in fact not eating breakfast until 11), pretty low carb in the day, and then sticking to slow carbs in the evening works for me. So typically I just had my big breakfast of nuts and seeds, blueberries and high fat yoghurt. That will keep me going until mid afternoon where I might just have some humous and oatcakes, or a salad with cheese. Then for tea I'll have either brown basmati or quinoa with my meat/fish/eggs/veg/lentils/beans/whatever. I then don't eat anything after 7ish.

This is the pattern Monday to Friday, and then at the weekend I'll have chips and some sugary things in the evenings, as well as booze. I very seldom get low blood sugar now. I can go long periods without eating without getting any energy drop. So far, so good.

 

[bellaozzydog]

I would get hypoglycemia often and it's not fun feeling hungry and shaky half an hour after a breakfast of a bowl of oats and banana.

Post prandial hypoglycemia?

If I double up carbs I get a honking grey sweaty, shaky period a few hours later

My mum used to give me a banana or bowl of cereal to make it stop

 

[Karl Masks]

Post prandial hypoglycemia?

If I double up carbs I get a honking grey sweaty, shaky period a few hours later

My mum used to give me a banana or bowl of cereal to make it stop

It seemed to be post prandial, as I understand it.

Now it may be that the problem was that I was mainly eating bread. I would have oats for breakfast and, in lieue of eating twix all day long, i didn't know better than to have..bread. Lunch would be somewhere between baked potato or pasta, usually with tuna and cheese. Dinner would be lean chicken, rice, some veg, possibly an orange for desert, snuck in after the main meal. Then, before bed, I'd have to have another sandwich because hunger. Clearly not an ideal diet.

What do you mean by double up on carbs? I'm sure if I ate more oats i'd be satisifed, but then...half an hour after that?

 

[Karl Masks]

I had the same! Bananas and wheat trigger this reaction in me. Although at the time I didn't really identify the full problem. I ended up constantly hungry, constantly craving carbs and put on a lot of weight. Hair was falling out and my mind was a foggy mess and I'd be shaking like a shitting dog an hour after meals. GPs advice was to "just eat normally"

This was about 15 years ago when there wasn't much discussion of this stuff. After a long period of time wandering through the wilderness of quackery and excluding stuff randomly from my diet, I have settled on what works for me. Keto worked really well to shift the carb cravings and rapidly improve insulin sensitivity, but for various reasons I don't try and maintain continual ketosis.

I've found that being very low carb in the morning (in fact not eating breakfast until 11), pretty low carb in the day, and then sticking to slow carbs in the evening works for me. So typically I just had my big breakfast of nuts and seeds, blueberries and high fat yoghurt. That will keep me going until mid afternoon where I might just have some humous and oatcakes, or a salad with cheese. Then for tea I'll have either brown basmati or quinoa with my meat/fish/eggs/veg/lentils/beans/whatever. I then don't eat anything after 7ish.

This is the pattern Monday to Friday, and then at the weekend I'll have chips and some sugary things in the evenings, as well as booze. I very seldom get low blood sugar now. I can go long periods without eating without getting any energy drop. So far, so good.

My experience exactly. Only I never went back to carbs. I'm fine eating the same food everyday, so meal varitey is not an issue for me. Whether that's good for me healthwise I don't know. But doctors were no help at all. One nutritionist just said "try to eat more healthily".

 

[Karl Masks]

You wouldn't want to go from keto to 'carb loading', balance with protein instead.

Could you explain what you mean? I already eat quite a lot of protein.
Thanks

 

[Idaho]

My experience exactly. Only I never went back to carbs. I'm fine eating the same food everyday, so meal varitey is not an issue for me. Whether that's good for me healthwise I don't know. But doctors were no help at all. One nutritionist just said "try to eat more healthily".

I eat a big variety of veg. I also eat a lot of fermented food (saukraut, yoghurt, cheese) and pre biotic stuff like dark chocolate and blueberries. I like a variety of food though, other than breakfast... Which is always the same and always enjoyable.

 

[furluxor]

Could you explain what you mean? I already eat quite a lot of protein.
Thanks

Sorry, I am not very clear sometimes. If you're eating a lot of protein, that's great. I was thinking about people who go from keto to pb and start eating insane amounts of carbs, forgetting the protein.

 

[gentlegreen]

I am a minimalist and eat the same food all the time.
Protein-wise I aim to get the bulk of my food ingredients over the 4.25kcals per 100kcals line so that I get at least 1g of protein per kcal.
Carrots are about as low as I go at 2g per 100kcals - but I only eat a couple of kilos a week max ...bananas and fruit are a problem though...
I bought 1.3 kilos of mushrooms this morning. They have even more protein than beans...

 

[Karl Masks]

Sorry, I am not very clear sometimes. If you're eating a lot of protein, that's great. I was thinking about people who go from keto to pb and start eating insane amounts of carbs, forgetting the protein.

Thanks. From what i've seen of recommended protein intakes, mine is at least the upper level.

 

[bellaozzydog]

It seemed to be post prandial, as I understand it.

Now it may be that the problem was that I was mainly eating bread. I would have oats for breakfast and, in lieue of eating twix all day long, i didn't know better than to have..bread. Lunch would be somewhere between baked potato or pasta, usually with tuna and cheese. Dinner would be lean chicken, rice, some veg, possibly an orange for desert, snuck in after the main meal. Then, before bed, I'd have to have another sandwich because hunger. Clearly not an ideal diet.

What do you mean by double up on carbs? I'm sure if I ate more oats i'd be satisifed, but then...half an hour after that?

Interestingly I ate rolled whole giant oats as porridge (made with water no additions) for three months straight (breakfast dinner lunch while stuck on a boat in corona year) and I never bonked out my blood sugar, lost three stone as well

It’s always things like chips, rice, biscuits in large amounts that seem to do

I definitely have to plan my food. I always have it routinely factored in to my activities. I’ve got colleagues who just miss meals and it doesn’t bother them

Currently avoiding evening meal Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday which should be healthy for intermittent fasting but I’ve got a big bag of lollipops and I have a couple in the afternoon/evening which eases me a long and probably negates any good work

 

[Karl Masks]

I've started by aging some rolled oats and chickpeas. I guess we'll see what happens. I'm up to about 50g carbs a day

 

[gentlegreen]

Yet another YT health channel.
This guy experimented with a continuous glucose monitor...
He links to a poster of gi characteristics of food in exchange for an email address..

 

[Idaho]

He talks for the entire video about reducing insulin spikes and never mentions fat?! Only protein and fibre. Very strange.

 

[gentlegreen]

He talks for the entire video about reducing insulin spikes and never mentions fat?! Only protein and fibre. Very strange.

I think he said that fibre wasn't sufficient - perhaps in the context of fruit maybe not being a miracle food - and he did suggest replacing jam with peanut butter ..

 

[Idaho]

Yeah but why does he avoid talking about it properly? Or even saying the word FFS. The one macro that has no insulin response!