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Accused rapist Ched Evans to be released from prison

What changes in the law do you think would help? I don't know what happened in that hotel room but if a woman saying 'fuck me harder' is not consent, on the basis that she may have been very drunk, what should be done to make the law protect women better?

In this particular case, it doesn't seem like there's an issue over whether "fuck me harder" constitutes consent, rather the way in which it was demonstrated to the jury that this is what the alleged victim had said. Evans' detailed account was already widely available online when a £50,000 inducement was made via social media, following which two men came forward to say that they had had sex with her, giving accounts strikingly similar to Evans'. Should this evidence have been admissible, particularly given that sexual history evidence is not supposed to be admitted lightly?
 
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yeh, as - once again - the secret barrister shows, this by no means establishes innocence on evans' part, nor lying on x's part.
I can't understand why people are claiming she is lying, what is X lying about? My understanding is that X never accused Evans of rape, her evidence was "I have no memory of the events of that night".

Edit, I have now seen the "secret barrister post" it makes a great deal of sense
 
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You seem to think you are making some kind of point, other than an obvious one. But you really aren't.

The argument you are quoting was about precedence, not about whether you believe it to be relevant or not. So your point is completely misdirected.

You seem to want a return to the seventies, when a victims sexual history was fair game. Uggh.
:facepalm:
 
Bit late to this. So he's been acquitted and the woman never actually accused him of rape. Who did then? How can someone be tried if there's no accusation from the victim?
 
Doesn't consent - drunken or otherwise - involve a conversation between participants?
Not necessarily. Do you always have a conversation about consent before you have sex?

If one guy is having sex with her and asks her "can my friend join in?" and she replies "yes", and the other guys joins in and she says "fuck me harder" .... why isn't it reasonable to think she's consenting?
 
same as the fest of us then. But seeing as you think we must be qualified in something before being able to comment, we an now safely ignore everything you say unless its about putting books in the right order.
that doesn't follow, not least as opinion varies greatly on what 'the right order' is. not to mention that so much of what happens now in a library has fuck all to do with books and more to do with helping people understand how to judge sources. to turn from the vagaries of information literacy as it is practiced in a library to how it can be applied in this specific instance, we have two people with varying opinions on this case. the first, you, insists that this case is setting some sort of precedent. the second, the secret barrister, claims that it is not setting some sort of precedent. in common law legal systems, a precedent is a principle or rule established in a previous legal case which is either binding on or persuasive for a court when deciding subsequent cases with similar issues or facts. on the one hand we have your claim, based on no obvious legal background, on the other hand we have someone who no one has denied is a legal professional who works in courts. if you want to contradict his view, you should do so with some evidence or argument about *why* he is wrong, not simply say 'he's wrong'. being as he has some experience of working in the legal system, it's not a great leap to say that his view is far more likely to be worth listening to on this point than yours. so unless you're going to say 'but this bit in the appeal court judgement sets a nasty precedent because...' perhaps you should shut up on this point.
Still doesn't speak to what I was saying tho, does it? The point - the entire point - is around her sexual history, and it's inclusion in this case. Whether an event took place before or after her abuse by evans makes absolutely no difference. It should not have been allowed, and the fact that it was allowed creates a new boundary for how such evidence can be used. That is precedent setting.
there are, as has been widely reported, some exceptions to the general prohibition on the use of a complainant's sexual history. i would be grateful if, if you believe what you're saying, you could say why you feel this is a precedent, as opposed to the law taking its course. in what way did this allow a new interpretation of the relevant statute?
 
There never has been any doubt about her - she's never lied, she simply doesn't remember. As far as I remember she didn't want this to go to trial and I don't think it should have. I feel desperately sorry for her but think she was probably operating in a blackout, as I have done before.
 
Er, it's a simple question
Yep. I can't figure that out either. It was the CPS's case against him, acting on her behalf.
All I have is this:
'As the Court of Appeal made clear in its judgment allowing the appeal, X has never asserted that she was raped. She has always simply maintained that she had no memory of what happened. It was the prosecution case – the case theory of the Crown Prosecution Service – that she was raped. The defence case was based not on the “usual” he said/ she said dispute over consent, but rather he said/ she can’t remember. There is absolutely no safe basis for suggesting she has lied."
 
There never has been any doubt about her - she's never lied, she simply doesn't remember. As far as I remember she didn't want this to go to trial and I don't think it should have. I feel desperately sorry for her but think she was probably operating in a blackout, as I have done before.
It's an awful situation, but the position of many on this thread is that they wanted him convicted of rape, even though he might not be guilty of rape. It's an emotive subject but that's an extremely unsound attitude.
 
Yep. I can't figure that out either. It was the CPS's case against him, acting on her behalf.
All I have is this:
'As the Court of Appeal made clear in its judgment allowing the appeal, X has never asserted that she was raped. She has always simply maintained that she had no memory of what happened. It was the prosecution case – the case theory of the Crown Prosecution Service – that she was raped. The defence case was based not on the “usual” he said/ she said dispute over consent, but rather he said/ she can’t remember. There is absolutely no safe basis for suggesting she has lied."
i think what happened was that as the police investigated her complaint regarding (iirc) her handbag, other things came out which made them take the course of action which led evans to face trial in the first place.
 
It's an awful situation, but the position of many on this thread is that they wanted him convicted of rape, even though he might not be guilty of rape. It's an emotive subject but that's an extremely unsound attitude.
tbh he does seem to remain convicted in the court of public opinion
 
Yep. I can't figure that out either. It was the CPS's case against him, acting on her behalf.
All I have is this:
'As the Court of Appeal made clear in its judgment allowing the appeal, X has never asserted that she was raped. She has always simply maintained that she had no memory of what happened. It was the prosecution case – the case theory of the Crown Prosecution Service – that she was raped. The defence case was based not on the “usual” he said/ she said dispute over consent, but rather he said/ she can’t remember. There is absolutely no safe basis for suggesting she has lied."

When you say 'acting on her behalf', surely that would require her to allege she was actually raped in order for him to be banged up for two years? Whole case seems very very dodgy.
 
that doesn't follow, not least as opinion varies greatly on what 'the right order' is. not to mention that so much of what happens now in a library has fuck all to do with books and more to do with helping people understand how to judge sources.
I do know that, and was being rude about the fine occupation of librarianship. For that, I apologise.

to turn from the vagaries of information literacy as it is practiced in a library to how it can be applied in this specific instance, we have two people with varying opinions on this case. the first, you, insists that this case is setting some sort of precedent. the second, the secret barrister, claims that it is not setting some sort of precedent. in common law legal systems, a precedent is a principle or rule established in a previous legal case which is either binding on or persuasive for a court when deciding subsequent cases with similar issues or facts. on the one hand we have your claim, based on no obvious legal background, on the other hand we have someone who no one has denied is a legal professional who works in courts. if you want to contradict his view, you should do so with some evidence or argument about *why* he is wrong, not simply say 'he's wrong'. being as he has some experience of working in the legal system, it's not a great leap to say that his view is far more likely to be worth listening to on this point than yours. so unless you're going to say 'but this bit in the appeal court judgement sets a nasty precedent because...' perhaps you should shut up on this point. there are, as has been widely reported, some exceptions to the general prohibition on the use of a complainant's sexual history. i would be grateful if, if you believe what you're saying, you could say why you feel this is a precedent, as opposed to the law taking its course. in what way did this allow a new interpretation of the relevant statute?
This is just nonsense tho. I am at a loss as to why you take everything this single barrister says as absolutely definitive truth. There are other legal opinions out there, some are even mentioned in the piece linked to. They say why they think this is creating precedence. And that is (as I said earlier) because this is setting out a baseline for what may or may not be allowed within those 'exceptions to the general prohibition on the use of a complainant's sexual history'
 
could you show me where i have said or suggested that?

seems to me that you like chucking round unfounded allegations because you don't like other people getting the better of you in an argument. but you should be used to it by now.
I was quoting Spymaster, not you. I made no such remarks to you, for the simple reason that you never said anything to give me such an impression.
 
When you say 'acting on her behalf', surely that would require her to allege she was actually raped in order for him to be banged up for two years? Whole case seems very very dodgy.
No at all. Just think about it for a minute or two.
Under English law I believe it is the CPS who decide, if and with what, a person is charged not the police (their job is to gather evidence) nor the victim.
 
This is just nonsense tho. I am at a loss as to why you take everything this single barrister says as absolutely definitive truth. There are other legal opinions out there, some are even mentioned in the piece linked to. They say why they think this is creating precedence. And that is (as I said earlier) because this is setting out a baseline for what may or may not be allowed within those 'exceptions to the general prohibition on the use of a complainant's sexual history'

Are you of the opinion that a complainants sexual history shouldn't be admitted in any case whatsoever, even if it could cast credible doubt on the defendants guilt?
 
When you say 'acting on her behalf', surely that would require her to allege she was actually raped in order for him to be banged up for two years? Whole case seems very very dodgy.
Yeah, 'acting on behalf of' might be wrong. I haven't got a clue really.
 
Are you of the opinion that a complainants sexual history shouldn't be admitted in any case whatsoever, even if it could cast credible doubt on the defendants guilt?
I would be slightly hesitant to say absolutely never, but I certainly think that belatedly repeating widely reported claims is a dodgy as fuck reason to do so.
 
Tbh this is all well explained by bimble's link I have referred to before. The Secret Barrister explains the exceptional circumstances which led to the appeal court deciding the new evidence needed to be tested before a jury.
Actually, according to analysis of Section 41 being invoked commissioned by the Home Office (admittedly in 2006), it was invoked in 1/3 of cases examined and, where it was granted, nearly always led to an acquittal. This paper recommends further training, particularly in the Court of Appeal, but I can find no reports of that having been carried out nor if the stats have changed.

Victims said that they weighed up the issue of whether sexual history evidence would be raised in court in
deciding whether to report the matter to the police and subsequently in deciding whether to withdraw the
allegation.
...
The prospective case-tracking data showed that, for adult complainants, there was a statistically significant
association between a section 41 application being made and an acquittal.
...
Findings from case files, trial observations and interviews raise the possibility that both prosecution and
defence share stereotypical assumptions about ‘appropriate’ female behaviour and that these continue to play
a part when issues of credibility are addressed in rape cases.

In this cases, Section 41 was lifted because of new evidence. There is a big issue in that the new evidence was provided by two witnesses who had been interviewed before the first trial and had made no mention of what X said during their sexual encounter. What Evans alleges she said was widely reported, as was the £50k reward. Subsequently (and several years after the events), both witnesses suddenly remembered dialogue that they'd previously forgotten.
 

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This is just nonsense tho. I am at a loss as to why you take everything this single barrister says as absolutely definitive truth. There are other legal opinions out there, some are even mentioned in the piece linked to. They say why they think this is creating precedence. And that is (as I said earlier) because this is setting out a baseline for what may or may not be allowed within those 'exceptions to the general prohibition on the use of a complainant's sexual history'
sorry, which piece linked to?
 
In this cases, Section 41 was lifted because of new evidence. There is a big issue in that the new evidence was provided by two witnesses who had been interviewed before the first trial and had made no mention of what X said during their sexual encounter. What Evans alleges she said was widely reported, as was the £50k reward. Subsequently (and several years after the events), both witnesses suddenly remembered dialogue that they'd previously forgotten.
yes, i don't think i've said anything approaching 'two good, honest and decent men came forwards of their own free will and without the expectation of financial gain'
 
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