Accused rapist Ched Evans to be released from prison

[Spymaster]

the problem is that juries also can contain people who can't see a difference. and people who think that women who drink deserve what they get. and all sorts of other shit.

Well that's another problem, but even if you had a jury of the 12 most reasonable people on the planet, they'd be hard pressed to definitively decide what a young, not very bright, pissed man, thought someone else was thinking in circumstances like this, and whether it was reasonable.

 

[toggle]

Well that's another problem, but even if you had a jury of the 12 most reasonable people on the planet, they'd be hard pressed to definitively decide what a young, not very bright, pissed man, thought someone else was thinking in circumstances like this, and whether it was reasonable.

his voluntary alcohol consumption is not a consideration. at least in law. in practice in the minds of jurors is a different matter.

 

[Athos]

Well that's another problem, but even if you had a jury of the 12 most reasonable people on the planet, they'd be hard pressed to definitively decide what a young, not very bright, pissed man, thought someone else was thinking in circumstances like this, and whether it was reasonable.

Yes, and that's why the bar is set so high i.e. they have to be certain beyond all reasonable doubt that he didn't believe she'd consented, beofre then can return a guilty verdict. If they couldn't decide that he didn't know she hadn't consented, they'd have to acquit.

 

[Spymaster]

Yes, and that's why the bar is set so high i.e. they have to be certain beyond all reasonable doubt that he didn't believe she'd consented, beofre then can return a guilty verdict. If they couldn't decide that he didn't know she hadn't consented, they'd have to acquit.

Well yes, in theory. In practice they can never be certain beyond all reasonable doubt what he thought she was thinking, particularly in a case where the victim can't remember anything about it.

 

[Athos]

Well yes, in theory. In practice they can never be certain beyond all reasonable doubt what he thought she was thinking, particularly in a case where the victim can't remember anything about it.

Which is part of the reason that a tiny porportion of rapes result in conviction. Which, in turn, is why I have limited sympathy for those who imply that the law is too difficult for men to understand and/or abide by.

 

[toggle]

Which is part of the reason that a tiny porportion of rapes result in conviction. Which, in turn, is why I have limited sympathy for those who imply that the law is too difficult for men to understand and/or abide by.

nods.

made worse by how much of the doubt comes from rape myths and beliefs about women's reliability and truthfullness.

 

[Cid]

Guidance (from the judicial studies board) in criminal cases is not to use 'beyond reasonable doubt' when directing a jury, instead they should be directed to be 'sure the defendant is guilty'. Although arguably this is just as confusing and opens up still more cans of worms. Would it be that fucking hard to publish some kind of nice jury-oriented infographic neatly showing how the standard of proof works?

 

[Spymaster]

Which is part of the reason that a tiny porportion of rapes result in conviction. Which, in turn, is why I have limited sympathy for those who imply that the law is too difficult for men to understand and/or abide by.

Well I'm glad we're agreeing today but surprised, given that I've argued nothing different to yesterday.

 

[equationgirl]

Do cite the case, or shut the fuck up. What I said was absolutely correct, and anyone who was not out to be deliberately argumentative would realise exactly what I was saying. Just to be clear, because the the man has the penis, the man must be absolutely certain that the act is consensual. There have been many cases where a man has been prosecuted for having intercourse with an unconscious woman, and rightly convicted of rape. My response was to try and get over to Bimble, that women do not get prosecuted for this offence (not sure if it is physiologically possible), but men do, therefore a man has an absolute responsibility to ensure that they are acting in both a legal and a moral manner.

You're wrong, it does happen - it's rare, but does happen. In the UK the most well-known case of this kind is the Joyce McKinney case, who was prosecuted and jailed in 1978 for forcing a man to have sex with her against his will.

And it is physiologically possible - I would expect you to know that, given you were a nurse.

Next time, try Googling before posting to avoid Pickman's model posting more pictures of diggers.

 

[bimble]

if someone believes they are unable to refrain from rape while drunk, then they should aviod drinking.

Sure, yes. But it's totally unacceptable to suggest that a person should avoid drinking if they believe there's any chance they might end up enthusiastically drunkenly having sex with somebody whilst they are so pissed that a jury might deem that their consent at the time was invalid, right?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Sure, yes. But it's totally unacceptable to suggest that a person should avoid drinking if they believe there's any chance they might end up enthusiastically drunkenly having sex with somebody whilst they are so pissed that a jury might deem that their consent at the time was invalid, right?

Of course. Anything else would be blaming the victim for being raped.

What is it that people find so complicated with regards to consent?

 

[equationgirl]

Sure, yes. But it's totally unacceptable to suggest that a person should avoid drinking if they believe there's any chance they might end up enthusiastically drunkenly having sex with somebody whilst they are so pissed that a jury might deem that their consent at the time was invalid, right?

What if you had a friend who repeatedly got wasted and ended up sleeping with people whilst drunk, and who would phone you the next day regretting it? Every time they went out? Would you recommend they still drank that much?

 

[equationgirl]

And no, I'm not blaming the victim, just trying to persuade bimble to think about what they're posting.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Alcohol can be highly efficient at temporarily erasing ingrained social behaviours

That's contestable by about 100 years of psychological and psychiatric research, both of which have found that alcohol, even in immoderate quantities, only has a mild dis-inhibitory effect. That is, it relaxes your mental censor, it doesn't cause you to undertake behaviours that you're not already consciously or unconsciously aligned with.

"Temporarily erasing" is a bag of arse.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well all he's admitted to doing is having drunken sex with a woman who was enthusiastically consenting.

Although the "enthusiastic consent" was arguably her pissing herself while unconscious, rather than anything conscious and vocal.

 

[Spymaster]

Although the "enthusiastic consent" was arguably her pissing herself while unconscious, rather than anything conscious and vocal.

Although there's no evidence that she pissed herself or was unconcious in their company. She just said she woke up at 11.30am having wet the bed.

 

[belboid]

Well I'm glad we're agreeing today but surprised, given that I've argued nothing different to yesterday.

Your crocodile tears are just hypocritical tosh. You continue to find excuses for men, shown up again with shit
Iike:

Well yes, in theory. In practice they can never be certain beyond all reasonable doubt what he thought she was thinking, particularly in a case where the victim can't remember anything about it.

And then you demand that the men are not just 'not guilty' but are INNOCENT. You pretend to care that rapists get away with it, but make argument after argument about why more men should be found not guilty, why more men should get away with rape. Shameful.

 

[belboid]

Although there's no evidence that she pissed herself or was unconcious in their company. She just said she woke up at 11.30am having wet the bed.

Good of you to make sure the sexual abusers' case is made for them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Although there's no evidence that she pissed herself or was unconcious in their company. She just said she woke up at 11.30am having wet the bed.

There's also no evidence that she hadn't. An absence of evidence does not mean an absence of occurrence, it only implies it.

 

[Spymaster]

Your crocodile tears are just hypocritical tosh. You continue to find excuses for men, shown up again with shit
Iike:

And then you demand that the men are not just 'not guilty' but are INNOCENT. You pretend to care that rapists get away with it, but make argument after argument about why more men should be found not guilty, why more men should get away with rape. Shameful.

Lies.

You've already demonstrated your piss-poor grasp of what's going on here.

Get fucked you bullshitting turd.

<ignored>

 

[belboid]

Lies.

You've already demonstrated your grasp of what's going on here.

Get fucked you bullshitting turd.

<ignored>

No 'lies' simply a different point of view to yours. But it's the kind of false dichotomy you like, same as the one that leads you to (as you did earlier) immediately jump from him getting off to prosecuting her for false accusation. A disgusting attitude.

Not the first time you've claimed to put me on ignore either, wonder how true this one is.

 

[Spymaster]

There's also no evidence that she hadn't. An absence of evidence does not mean an absence of occurrence, it only implies it.

Absolutely, but the suggestion is completely unreliable which is why the prosecution didn't try to use it.

 

[redsquirrel]

No 'lies' simply a different point of view to yours. But it's the kind of false dichotomy you like, same as the one that leads you to (as you did earlier) immediately jump from him getting off to prosecuting her for false accusation. A disgusting attitude.

Not the first time you've claimed to put me on ignore either, wonder how true this one is.

Curious how those who claim they are so outraged by supposed excusing of the events in Cologne by "the Left" are willing to give Evans so much leeway. Almost as if there are some other motivation over their postings on that thread.

 

[Spymaster]

Curious how those who claim they are so outraged by supposed excusing of the events in Cologne by "the Left" are willing to give Evans so much leeway.

Christ. So now, not subscribing to made-up 'facts' against him is affording him undue leeway.

The bloke has had his conviction overturned. There'll be a reason for that.

 

[RubyBlue]

.

 

[RubyBlue]

I meant hesbvute

 

[RubyBlue]

Cute

 

[RubyBlue]

Lol

 

[RubyBlue]

Twatten

 

[RubyBlue]

Hag .lucky I'm gay lol Pamela lol she's ,y. New go away m