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wobbly
of course, mumsnet is the only place where repeating bullshit rape myths is considered unacceptable.
Accused rapist Ched Evans to be released from prison
- Thread starter Bahnhof Strasse
- Start date
of course, mumsnet is the only place where repeating bullshit rape myths is considered unacceptable.
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wobbly
that was your fucking claim, why don't yuou excplain what you were trying to say.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I have. They dont support you. You are the only person on this thread who believes they do. Clearly nothing will change your mind. Which is very sad.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
If you're talking about a court case and wondering whether or not to lock those men up, that's the wrong question, isn't it? The question in terms of 'beyond reasonable doubt' surely has to be 'is there reason to disbelieve them?' You don't have to believe them, merely to have no reason not to believe them.
Many court cases do come down to the believability of various opposing stories (which is a problem in itself, on a much wider point - we're not great judges of such things and are easily fooled (even just the time of day (morning/afternoon, after lunch or just before leaving) influences our receptability to testimony), but this one, it appears, didn't. There is no attested opposing story, is there?
On the narrow point about semi-consciousness, fs makes a good point that an alcohol-induced inability to lay down long-term memories does not necessarily mean you appear semi-conscious. I'm sure many of us can attest first-hand to that.
This is a sorry case all round. I feel very sorry for the woman involved, who's suffered a great deal through no fault of her own. She can't even remember, and as far as I know has never claimed otherwise. Poor sod.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I share some of fs's unease about the case. Apparently that means being a rape-apologist cunt on here.
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wobbly
what you quoted is a reference to free spirit saying;
which looks a lot like him claiming that men who can attract female attention never commit rape because they don't need to.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
My point was that whether the guy had just arrived and asked or been offered to get involved in a 2some, orgy, bondage, seconds etc. or had been with her all night, or was her long term boyfriend should be irrelevant to the actual issue of consent.
Consensual isn't rape in any of those situations, non-consensual is rape in all of those situations.
Cid
Proper break this time
Have you read the whole thread?
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wobbly
and a court decided that evans did not have reasonable grounds to believe she consented.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
no, I was saying it seemed pretty unlikely that they'd actually gone to that much effort to deliberately set it up so that he could end up raping a random passed out drunk girl, as that was what was being asserted.
eta and if they had done that, then it had all happened pretty randomly.
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wobbly
when did anyone claim the whole situation was a deliberate setup so they could commit rape?
and yes it is still an assertion that men who have access to sex don't need to rape.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
i still find it exhausting that so many folks here continue to misrepresent almost everything fs posts - presumably deliberately...
that is without delving whatsoever into the specifics of the case. i'm by no means convinced that Evans wasn't convicted justly - but so far as i can see the bulk of fs's posts have been reasonable and argued sincerely. doesn't appear to warrant all these perennial accusations that he is accusing the victim of lying, that he's claiming attractive men don't commit rape, that he's being misogynistic... etc etc etc. quite apart from the quite insidious inferences to him earlier.
even being right in an argument about a case like this shouldn't give licence to this piranha mob mentality, where it's generally tolerated that fs will be subject to a bombardment of vague distortions and crude elaborations of his position whilst literally every single word he types is picked over with a fine-toothed comb. on top of the wild aspersions and aggressive denunciations.
ffs why can't we have a conversation people.
that is without delving whatsoever into the specifics of the case. i'm by no means convinced that Evans wasn't convicted justly - but so far as i can see the bulk of fs's posts have been reasonable and argued sincerely. doesn't appear to warrant all these perennial accusations that he is accusing the victim of lying, that he's claiming attractive men don't commit rape, that he's being misogynistic... etc etc etc. quite apart from the quite insidious inferences to him earlier.
even being right in an argument about a case like this shouldn't give licence to this piranha mob mentality, where it's generally tolerated that fs will be subject to a bombardment of vague distortions and crude elaborations of his position whilst literally every single word he types is picked over with a fine-toothed comb. on top of the wild aspersions and aggressive denunciations.
ffs why can't we have a conversation people.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
so the fact this is the only one of them where both defendants actually claimed she'd specifically consented, and where the woman hadn't contradicted that just said she couldn't remember, and where the only evidence against them was the alleged level of drunkeneness of the woman isn't sufficiently different to be worth discussing?
All the cited case law that I checked had featured the woman giving some sort of evidence against her rapists, with the closest being the rapists claiming some sort of implied consent rather than that she'd actually specifically consented as in this case, some of the older ones attempting to argue that the lack of an objection or lack of physical resistance was sufficient. None of this applied in this case.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
you do like misrepresenting people don't you.
That was clearly in reference to the quoted bit about referencing coke and alcohol use (which I'd only done in response to butchers accusations in the first place).
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Unlikely you'd find a crown court transcript. Was there a transcriber for that particular court (they're not necessarily recorded)? I suppose if there was you could contact the relevant transcription company. The relevant facts are set out in the appeal Judgment anyway and you've seen that.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
because they're nasty fucks and not that bright? some misguided attempt to stand up for their mate?
correct me if i'm wrong but i haven't seen anyone on this thread that Evans and co are paragons of virtue. most of fs arguments, from my understanding, are more about the machinations of the law and how it has created a potential blind-spot.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
FWIW, I've not edited that post at all, the clue being that there's not a note at the bottom of the post to say that I'd edited it.I was wondering where you got this bit of guff from - the Ched Evans site - and you've added the reference in because it wasn't bloody there originally. You're seriously quoting that as a reputable source of information?
It's also not bloody true - which I think you've since realised because you've quoted the appeal transcript extensively. Pretty grim that you haven't retracted it
and no I didn't quote his website as a reputable source of information, I specifically stated where that specific bit of information came from in order to make clear that I wasn't sure how reliable it was and allow people to judge for themselves, or investigate further if they wanted to.
If it does add any clarity then the appeal court documents state the following about what she reported to the police initially
Which to me doesn't appear to clarify anything about what specifically she had initially reported to the police.
I've seen plenty of ladies tottering about wearing high heels when they have been absolutely blootered. Everybody accepts she walked into the hotel willingly and had sex with the first lad. The contention is that Evans came and had sex with her afterwards and, at that point, due to previous alcohol consumption entering her system or from alcohol consumed in the room , she was insensible, so couldn't give consent. Personally I have been in states where I have been drunk to the point where my actions seem sensible at the time but I had been smashed, at no time have I thought that having sex with an effectively unconscious girl is in any way appropriate.
Rightly or wrongly football players are held up as icons for kids to look up to, meet, and emulate. Because of that he should not be allowed to be employed as a player.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I presume that you're reading the same point 12 of the appeal Judgment that I am, fs? You haven't quoted all of it.
https://www.crimeline.info/uploads/cases/2012ewcacrim2559.pdf
https://www.crimeline.info/uploads/cases/2012ewcacrim2559.pdf
It's just something that doesn't add up - a key part if FS's argument is that she hasn't actually made a complaint: Yet, all of Evans' defence seems to hinge on trashing her. All of it. If she hasn't made a complaint, why would he be doing that?
FS's legal arguments have been shown over and over to be confused at best by several people who actually understand how the law works. Which, presumably, is why they aren't the legal arguments of the defence team. Who are instead concentrating on pouring doubt on the victim's plausibility.
FS's legal arguments have been shown over and over to be confused at best by several people who actually understand how the law works. Which, presumably, is why they aren't the legal arguments of the defence team. Who are instead concentrating on pouring doubt on the victim's plausibility.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
If this were my job, then maybe I'd go to those lengths to obtain the full transcripts, as it is I've had to rely on the limited information that was available.
I would have been particularly interested to read the full transcript of the defences expert witness on alcohol effects though, as the appeal court dismissal really does seem to indicate that he was pretty bad and shot the defence in the foot by painting her as a lier and saying she couldn't have been drunk enough to have suffered memory loss, rather than pointing out that memory loss doesn't necessarily mean she was obviously incoherent.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Which job, the defence lawyers? You think they didn't?
free spirit
more tea vicar?
indeed, as previously pointed out I tend to prefer to quote the salient parts, but if you insist.
Which still doesn't say exactly what was reported to the police in the first place, or what happened between her reporting the matter, and being examined by a police doctor.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Read point 12 of that appeal Judgment I linked to.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
You said if it was your job. I was asking which job you meant, the defence lawyer's job? Or some other job?didn't what?
search for transcripts of the court case they were involved in?
free spirit
more tea vicar?
except that when the defence tried to appeal it they did so by trying to introduce expert witness testimony stating exactly what I've been saying about blackouts, because it hadn't been covered properly in the first trial due to the original defence team's decision to attempt to paint the woman as a lier instead.
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