Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Kris
Accused rapist Ched Evans to be released from prison
- Thread starter Bahnhof Strasse
- Start date
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Get off the thread you fucking dolt.
bimble
floofy
This is so stupid. A lot like those men who took to twitter to hurl abuse at x.
trashpony
Hag
I know I'm really emotional about this.This is hugely personal to me I've said that I'm a rape victim - at least once - on this thread. It hasn't even fucking been acknowledged. Just ignored, glossed over.
Do you know why I mention it all the time rape comes up? Because I'm trying desperately to tell myself it's not my fault. But really I still think it is, 20 years later. My own stupid fault. And I expect most of you would think that too. If it came up in court - you'd absolutely believe him, not me. You don't even give me the courtesy of acknowledging me, why on earth would you want to hear me?
Every single post on this thread and on every single other rape thread picks over victims' testimony like carrion. It's painful to me and to a lot of the other women on urban who have been raped and sexually assaulted (there's loads of us - what a surprise). This is a place of community, where we should feel safe and cared for, where we have shared histories, and shared futures. A lot of us have met friends, lovers, life partners here. But this thread exposes that feeling of safety for the lie that it is. Men hold us in disdain. We are disbelieved, our testimonies mean nothing, we are sluts and whores.
I'm sick of the echo chamber.
Do you know why I mention it all the time rape comes up? Because I'm trying desperately to tell myself it's not my fault. But really I still think it is, 20 years later. My own stupid fault. And I expect most of you would think that too. If it came up in court - you'd absolutely believe him, not me. You don't even give me the courtesy of acknowledging me, why on earth would you want to hear me?
Every single post on this thread and on every single other rape thread picks over victims' testimony like carrion. It's painful to me and to a lot of the other women on urban who have been raped and sexually assaulted (there's loads of us - what a surprise). This is a place of community, where we should feel safe and cared for, where we have shared histories, and shared futures. A lot of us have met friends, lovers, life partners here. But this thread exposes that feeling of safety for the lie that it is. Men hold us in disdain. We are disbelieved, our testimonies mean nothing, we are sluts and whores.
I'm sick of the echo chamber.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Do fuck off. You don't know what you're talking about and are peddling dangerous myths. You may well genuinely believe you are right, but that's still no excuse.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
It was not your fault you were raped. It was the fault of the man who raped you, not yours.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It hasn't been acknowledged because most long term posters are aware of it, and it's impossible to respond objectively to someone who is posting subjectively. It's why I haven't torn into you for falsely accusing me of being ... all sorts.
I believe you.
Nobody on this thread (that I can recall) has said they categorically believe Evans. Nobody on this thread has blamed the woman.
This is a bulletin board where experiences and views are discussed. This part of the boards (P&P) is not your safe space. There has been a rake of information posted that doesn't agree with you but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
I'm sorry that anything I've posted has upset you enough for you to call me the things you have.
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Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
There's such a huge difference of experience between someone like me who is just angry about Evans and rape culture and yourself who has experienced it. I think that great divide makes it difficult sometimes to say anything meaningful to victims in online discussions like this. that's not put forward as a defence from me, more a feeling of emotional inadequacy, about (not) responding to someone else's pain. I'm sorry though.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Sorry, can't see that.
Male twitterati proactively call for raping and hanging of X.
TrashPony reacts, whether you agree or disagree how she does it or not, to gender imbalance of power in forum, law and wider society.
I think there's a lot of difference, not a lot of 'like'.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Go to bed, you fucking thick prick.
bimble
floofy
I was defending a friend and certainly wouldn't have been so harsh had I read trashoonys later longer post first. Spymaster is not what she called him is all, but I understand now why that happened.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Thank you.
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Raheem
Well-Known Member
I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but my reasons for not acknowledging your saying you were raped is that I have nothing insightful or useful to say about it, asking questions about it seems to me (rightly or wrongly) inappropriate and simply stopping to acknowledge it seems (rightly or wrongly) patronising. I guess that points up that sexual violence is an awkward thing to talk about, particularly when it comes to personal experience.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Liked because I feel pretty much the same way .
miktheword
Well-Known Member
If it means anything, I reckon a lot of men reading this on here have questioned themselves having had very drunken sex..consent not explicitly asked for by either side. From being in the company of football hooligans (Tottenham, early 80s) talking about how they're gonna do one of their own cos 'no -one likes rapists, to the demonised Millwall a few years back, singing ' she said no, L***, she said no''. The Trump locker room shite has been dispelled by recent interviews with US baseball players;
my now long term partner has alluded to being assaulted years back..not talked about openly,,, I would if she wanted to...but she doesn't want to, or to watch that certain series in EastEnders, barmaid getting raped, or the recent National Treasure, or The Fall,,all because of abuse; I've had drunken sex where consent hasn't been asked by either side, many spontaneous times; questioning myself recently due only to changes in CPS process; (on an 18-30, a woman who knew of me through her friends, grabbed me one drunked night, spoke, we had sex, no words were exchanged. didn't last long and both returned to what we were doing before...questioned myself when reading this thread - how can you have sex without asking her name?.. but me and all me mates knew and would have stopped anything non consensual...the demonization would've been against any bloke forcing himself..certainly not against the woman.
And I reckon a few should change their minds that seem determined to abuse CR, having read his posts on this.
my now long term partner has alluded to being assaulted years back..not talked about openly,,, I would if she wanted to...but she doesn't want to, or to watch that certain series in EastEnders, barmaid getting raped, or the recent National Treasure, or The Fall,,all because of abuse; I've had drunken sex where consent hasn't been asked by either side, many spontaneous times; questioning myself recently due only to changes in CPS process; (on an 18-30, a woman who knew of me through her friends, grabbed me one drunked night, spoke, we had sex, no words were exchanged. didn't last long and both returned to what we were doing before...questioned myself when reading this thread - how can you have sex without asking her name?.. but me and all me mates knew and would have stopped anything non consensual...the demonization would've been against any bloke forcing himself..certainly not against the woman.
And I reckon a few should change their minds that seem determined to abuse CR, having read his posts on this.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Whilst I wouldn't have worded it as he did, you'd have to be really keen to split hairs to take issue with Spymaster's description of the second limb of the definition of rape.
In practice, there's no real difference between saying that, to find him guilty they'd need to decide beyond reasonable doubt that he did not reasonably believe in consent, and that they'd find him guilty if they concluded he could not have reasonably believed in consent. The 'could not' is just another way of saying that they must be sure he did not believe in consent.
At most, you're arguing about whether or not 'could not' its an absolute, or implies some threshold to exclude fanciful possibilities. Which, given the context his position is pretty clear.
You're both coming across as a bit silly with this spat, on this thread in particular. Especially in light of Trashpony having shared what happened to her.
Athos
Well-Known Member
This case has left me with very mixed feelings.
Personally, from all that I've read, I think I'd have gone with a guilty verdict if I'd been a juror, even on the second jury.
But it raises so many important questions: the apparent retrograde step of allowing the examination of X's sexual history; the questions about evidence coming to light after the offer of a reward; the real problem in proving cases of this kind, and whether there's an argument for a different standard of proof; and, the question of whether, in light of the admissibility of the new evidence, the CPS should have proceeded with a retrial, given how traumatising that was likely to be for X, versus the desire to hold this scumbag to account.
Most terrifying of all, and a genuine surprise to me, is the level of vitriolic misogyny out there. Generally, and in terms of the impact on X.
Personally, from all that I've read, I think I'd have gone with a guilty verdict if I'd been a juror, even on the second jury.
But it raises so many important questions: the apparent retrograde step of allowing the examination of X's sexual history; the questions about evidence coming to light after the offer of a reward; the real problem in proving cases of this kind, and whether there's an argument for a different standard of proof; and, the question of whether, in light of the admissibility of the new evidence, the CPS should have proceeded with a retrial, given how traumatising that was likely to be for X, versus the desire to hold this scumbag to account.
Most terrifying of all, and a genuine surprise to me, is the level of vitriolic misogyny out there. Generally, and in terms of the impact on X.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Honestly mate, if it's come as a surprise to you, then you just having been paying attention.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I knew it existed, of course. But the extent of it is what's shocked me. Men and women (whom is previously regarded as pretty sound) down my local calling her a "lying slut" and saying she deserves to go to prison.
bemused
Well-Known Member
I don't know if he did it or not, but, from the outside looking in allowing her previous sexual partners to give evidence seems deeply unfair. The so-called evidence as reported in the press seems to centre on her liking a drink and having fun in bed - it wasn't clear to me why that mattered or what point that proved in relation to the case?
Athos
Well-Known Member
I think the alleged relevance was that the defence could show that she habitually had sex in a particular way (doggie, and asking for it harder) that was identical to what Evans described, which it was suggested gave credence to his version of events.
Personally, I find that problematic for a number of reasons: first, I think any similarity could easily be coincidence, since that's hardly an unusual way to have sex; secondly, I don't think that evidence ought to be sufficiently compelling to allow a victim's sex life to be examined in court (because of the harm to her and the disincentive to other women to report rape); and, thirdly, that the evidence came to light after both his account had been made public and after a reward had been offered.
Gromit
International Man of Misery
She was asked if she was the sort to have sex with a stranger. She said no.
This was somehow used as evidence towards lack of consent.
The previous sexual partners testimony was to somehow counterpoint this.
As has been previously stated by Keithy it should be irrelevant to the defense.
Chaste women and unchaste women can still be raped. To which I agree.
I'd also argue that it should also have been irrelevant to the prosecution side too. I'd never slept with a stranger either... until the first time.
bemused
Well-Known Member
Was the reward ever paid out?
Treacle Toes
Time
Woman aren't allowed to like a drink and fun in bed...if they do it means they probably consented to sex with someone they don't remember being there...
bemused
Well-Known Member
That's what I don't understand and I assume there were long legal arguments where judges concluded it was relevant to the case - but from what's reported it doesn't seem to be that important. As I understand it she doesn't remember what happened that night so I would imagine that would be the central area of consideration in the case; not what sort of sex she enjoys.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure that is how the new evidence was used; the witness had made that point in a statement before the first trial, but the defence decided not call him. The new evidence was specifically about the position and what she said during sex.
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Athos
Well-Known Member
They say not.
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