Abort 67 "intimidating protests" outside Blackfriars/London clinic

[Athos]

People exercising their vote given the chance, isn't an indication of passion.

You'll have to settle on a position before you vote, you realise?

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

You'll have to settle on a position before you vote, you realise?

More proof you haven't been reading my feckin posts!



Yes, of course I'll have to settle on a position. As I said earlier, there are many shades of grey and I can't expect someone who is passionately pro-choice to agree with me on that.

 

[Athos]

More proof you haven't been reading my feckin posts!



Yes, of course I'll have to settle on a position. As I said earlier, there are many shades of grey and I can't expect someone who is passionately pro-choice to agree with me on that.

I understand that there are many shades of grey. Not sure why you think that my position is inconsistent with an appreciation of that?

 

[DotCommunist]

The anti-abortionist's argument is presumably what is a woman's right to bodily autonomy next to a child's right to live?

The two arguments are based on moral positions, surely. You might not recognise the legitimacy of one position, but it's there sure enough.

thats why I previously mentioned that it then reduct to 'when is an embryo 'alive' as we see it'

which is slightly different from saying the very idea of bodily autonomy is a moral position.

Caveat: I'm not saying moral judgements play no part on either side, simply that I'm right, and everyone else is wrong excluding those who agree with me on a real or theoretical level.

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

I understand that there are many shades of grey. Not sure why you think that my position is inconsistent with an appreciation of that?

I don't tbh...though I could think of a few...

 

[Athos]

which is slightly different from saying the very idea of bodily autonomy is a moral position.

Is slavery morally wrong? Why?

 

[DotCommunist]

Is slavery morally wrong? Why?

because people should not be owned like property- now you'll explicate how women as chattel and serfs were exactly that in legal terms for x amount of years, save it. And yes we can talk in terms of well- greco-roman slavery was different from 18th century african style slavery. Again, shelve it. I think you are trying to imply that some absolutes are fluid dependant to the culture/society and one mans morality is anothers abomination. Its not a new argument on me. I just don't buy it. What slave in a moraly accepted slave situation did not chafe at his bonds?

 

[toggle]

You're either trolling or you haven't bothered to read my posts.

The above claim by you in bold is absolutely outrageous.

Scroll back and read my posts.

i have.

you want to restrict abortion. so do they.

now respond to the rest of that post you goalpost moving disingenuous twunt

 

[toggle]

More proof you haven't been reading my feckin posts!



Yes, of course I'll have to settle on a position. As I said earlier, there are many shades of grey and I can't expect someone who is passionately pro-choice to agree with me on that.

a position you are unable or unwilling to either discuss or defend.

or even consistently articulate

 

[Athos]

because people should not be owned like property- now you'll explicate how women as chattel and serfs were exactly that in legal terms for x amount of years, save it. And yes we can talk in terms of well- greco-roman slavery was different from 18th century african style slavery. Again, shelve it. I think you are trying to imply that some absolutes are fluid dependant to the culture/society and one mans morality is anothers abomination. Its not a new argument on me. I just don't buy it. What slave in a moraly accepted slave situation did not chafe at his bonds?

No, you've got the wrong end of the stick. I'm not going to suggest that slavery could ever be justified on some dodgy relativist (or any!) grounds. Quite the opposite: I used it as an example of something that I was sure we'd both agree is always immoral! It was to demonstrate that the issue of bodily autonomy is a moral one. If slavery is immoral because it breaches a person's right to choose to do what they will with their own body, then it follows that it is morally good to uphold the right to such autonomy. Surely then the question of whether or not someone ought to have the freedom to do what they will with their own body is a question of morality (and one on which I think we agree - I'm certainly pro-choice). That was the point I was making in response to toggle's apparent suggestion that the pro-choice position is founded on logic whereas the anti-choice position is founded on morality.

 

[toggle]

No, you've got the wrong end of the stick. I'm not going to suggest that slavery could ever be justified on some dodgy relativist (or any!) grounds. Quite the opposite: I used it as an example of something that I was sure we'd both agree is always immoral! It was to demonstrate that the issue of bodily autonomy is a moral one. If slavery is immoral because it breaches a person's right to choose to do what they will with their own body, then it follows that it is morally good to uphold the right to such autonomy. Surely then the question of whether or not someone ought to have the freedom to do what they will with their own body is a question of morality (and one on which I think we agree - I'm certainly pro-choice). That was the point I was making in response to toggle's apparent suggestion that the pro-choice position is founded on logic whereas the anti-choice position is founded on morality.

i was saying that there was no logical coherency in his positions. he's all over the fucking shop.

 

[DotCommunist]

I think where toggle (correct me if I'm wrong toggle) talks about the logic of a position she is talking about real world consequence- how the stated aims of one moral position produces results running contrary to it- hence if there is an internal logic, they fail to obey that in practise because the premises are at odds with reality

 

[Athos]

i was saying that there was no logical coherency in his positions. he's all over the fucking shop.

That's true enough. I may have got the wrong end of the stick; it looked to me like you were suggesting that the anti-choice position is a question of morality, whereas the pro-choice position (which I share) is based on logic.

 

[DotCommunist]

oh you were talking about slade's nebulouse ever shifting goalposts. Fair enough

 

[Athos]

I think where toggle (correct me if I'm wrong toggle) talks about the logic of a position she is talking about real world consequence- how the stated aims of one moral position produces results running contrary to it- hence if there is an internal logic, they fail to obey that in practise because the premises are at odds with reality

You might be right, though that wasn't how I understood toggle's post.

 

[toggle]

That's true enough. I may have got the wrong end of the stick; it looked to me like you were suggesting that the anti-choice position is a question of morality, whereas the pro-choice position (which I share) is based on logic.

there's also the difference between moral judgement and moralising. he's separating women out into classes of victims and strumpets, not accepting that each woman has her own logical reasons for her actions. she's either an innocent who ins't in control or someone thoughtless. there's no acceptance that their choice can be their own moral and logical decision, taken by a person with a vagina with her own fully functioning mental faculties and moral compass.

 

[Athos]

there's also the difference between moral judgement and moralising. he's separating women out into classes of victims and strumpets, not accepting that each woman has her own logical reasons for her actions. she's either an innocent who ins't in control or someone thoughtless. there's no acceptance that their choice can be their own moral and logical decision, taken by a person with a vagina with her own fully functioning mental faculties and moral compass.

In categorising women as victims or strumpets, he's taking a moral position. In saying that all women ought to have autonomy over their own bodies (even where that involves terminating a foetus), so are we. Don't get me wrong, I think we (and DotCommunist) agree that this guy's views are abhorrent, but my point was about the similarity in the fundamental nature of our respective positions.

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

a position you are unable or unwilling to either discuss or defend.

or even consistently articulate

i have.

you want to restrict abortion. so do they.

now respond to the rest of that post you goalpost moving disingenuous twunt

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ars-london-clinic.328955/page-8#post-13636234

I've said next to nothing on the subject before that, except to say I'm pro-life but don't agree with people harassing clients of an abortion clinic.

You've then decided that your highest priority isn't campaigning against religious nutters protesting outside abortion clinics, or even to discuss that subject matter on this thread,
but to take lumps out of some hapless cunt, who incidentally doesn't really give that much of a fuck.

 

[trashpony]

Super. Another professional misogynist. Just what this site needs

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

Super. Another professional misogynist. Just what this site needs

Oh go and put the tea on love.

 

[cantsin]

Oh go and put the tea on love.

Keyboard big man on the loose - impressive

 

[DotCommunist]

your on your way out

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

your on your way out

Yeah well. Abused all the way through by people who even accused me having views that said that I'm opposed to.

If people want to claim I'm some kind of woman hater just because I don't agree with everything they say, then what kind of reaction can they expect?

If some feminist thinks I hate women just for having that view, then he/she can think whatever the fuck they want to.

Baiting people by accusing them of being women haters / mysongist etc just as an insult, is pretty fucking sick.

Why change hearts and minds, when you can just wade in with insults like that?

 

[trashpony]

If you value the life of a foetus above that of the woman that is incubating it, then you are a woman hater. Sorry about that

 

[DotCommunist]

nobody here is evangelising. 'Some feminist' is a shit thing to say. Grow up.

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

If you value the life of a foetus above that of the woman that is incubating it, then you are a woman hater. Sorry about that

You really want to stop making assumptions about my views.

You're so wrapped up in your hatred of me, just because I don't share your views, that you're letting your imagination run wild.

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

nobody here is evangelising. 'Some feminist' is a shit thing to say. Grow up.

Is an "Angry Feminist" a shit thing to have as a Status/Slogan below ones avatar then?

 

[DotCommunist]

yeah well, if feminism was a negative attribute for you to use as a dismissal of argument, it would be. But it isn't and your dismissal therein betrays you as a bit of a dick. As if confirmation further was needed on that point

 

[trashpony]

You really want to stop making assumptions about my views.

You're so wrapped up in your hatred of me, just because I don't share your views, that you're letting your imagination run wild.

I'm making assumptions about your views based on what you've typed on this thread.

Are those not your views then?

 

[Spirit Of Slade]

yeah well, if feminism was a negative attribute for you to use as a dismissal of argument, it would be. But it isn't and your dismissal therein betrays you as a bit of a dick. As if confirmation further was needed on that point

Well. I've looked back at the thread and I've missed posts from yourself, so I'm quite confident that people have been jumping to conclusions about my views..I don't blame people for doing that, because people are after all human.

If you think that I think all or most abortions are just done for convenience, then you've got me all wrong.

So I'm going to say this once more.

My views on abortion isn't important. I'm not interested in fucking trying to change anyone's minds. I'm not passionate about it.

Yet many people seem to be more passionate about my views, or my views on the subject that I haven't explained yet - than they are about a bunch of nutjobs protesting outside abortion clinics.

Earlier on in this thread, there are people that made pro-choice points to me and I agreed with them...and everyone was OK.

Laughably others accused me of making moral judgements (When I couldn't give a fuck), then went on to make moral judgements about me.

If someone wants to terminate their pregancy, they can go to bed worrying about bigger things than what I think...because guess what...I don't think that people who terminate their pregnancies are horrible people.