A Woman's Place is Speaking Up in Wales

[Gromit]

There's rather a lot of instances in the US where trans-women (mostly are probably fraudulent in the way I described above) have spied on, assaulted, raped and murdered women and girls. The law is a safety-net. I hope that explains it for you Ddraig.

What's that got to do with Wales?
That something may or may not happen thousands of miles away is not evidence that there is a significant problem here. I also doubt how significant a problem there is in the states vrs ultra conservative hysteria.

 

[shygirl]

how can you have "rational, mature, respectful discussions" if you're policing the attendees in advance?

It has to 'police' because attendees who genuinely want to hear what WPUK and their invited speakers have to say are worried about their personal safety, indeed, are worried too for their livelihoods. Such is the level of hatred directed at women who dare to ask questions that we have to be mindful of security. You will all probably be aware of the woman who was punched down by two tall, strong trans-women at Hyde Park Corner, that's pretty scary. The Morning Star article carries a picture of one of these two attackers, it's the top one where the TW is sticking their middle finger up at the picket line I mentioned earlier. So even their recent arrest for assault has failed to deter them for behaving in an intimidating way towards women.

 

[ddraig]

To show that predatory men, whether trans or not, will use loop-holes to gain access to women and girls. I am NOT saying that transwomen have this as an agenda, but that some men are likely to use self-id as a way of accessing women and girls. In the same way that some men pretend to be interested in youth work, teaching, etc in order to get their rocks off on being close to children. Think boy scouts. This shit happens.

We will not be able to distinguish between a man who is fraudulent in claiming to feel like a woman and someone who genuinely feels themselves to be a woman. The law is there to protect us and given that 98 % of sexual violence on women and girls is committed by men, we need to be cautious. There's rather a lot of instances in the US where trans-women (mostly are probably fraudulent in the way I described above) have spied on, assaulted, raped and murdered women and girls. The law is a safety-net. I hope that explains it for you Ddraig.

yes there are disgusting predatory males but still don't understand why you posted this as some kind of example, really confusing
do you generally campaign against predatory males who identify as males??

 

[ddraig]

It has to 'police' because attendees who genuinely want to hear what WPUK and their invited speakers have to say are worried about their personal safety, indeed, are worried too for their livelihoods. Such is the level of hatred directed at women who dare to ask questions that we have to be mindful of security. You will all probably be aware of the woman who was punched down by two tall, strong trans-women at Hyde Park Corner, that's pretty scary. The Morning Star article carries a picture of one of these two attackers, it's the top one where the TW is sticking their middle finger up at the picket line I mentioned earlier. So even their recent arrest for assault has failed to deter them for behaving in an intimidating way towards women.

do you worry these people will come to Cardiff?? can't you just ban these individuals who have done the attacking?
still confused, would I be able to attend for example? not that I want to jut wondering. And again, what is the criteria on which people will be refused entry or have their ticket cancelled and refunded? It doesn't look like a public meeting at all

 

[shygirl]

Who gets to determine who has a woman's voice?

Women.

 

[1927]

It has to 'police' because attendees who genuinely want to hear what WPUK and their invited speakers have to say are worried about their personal safety, indeed, are worried too for their livelihoods. Such is the level of hatred directed at women who dare to ask questions that we have to be mindful of security. You will all probably be aware of the woman who was punched down by two tall, strong trans-women at Hyde Park Corner, that's pretty scary. The Morning Star article carries a picture of one of these two attackers, it's the top one where the TW is sticking their middle finger up at the picket line I mentioned earlier. So even their recent arrest for assault has failed to deter them for behaving in an intimidating way towards women.

So if I was genuinely interested in hearing about this I wouldn’t be allowed in because I’m male? Sounds like discrimination to me!

 

[1927]

Women.

I’ll repeat my earlier question then. Who gets to define women?

 

[weepiper]

I’ll repeat my earlier question then. Who gets to define women?

We do. What is so hard about this?

 

[ddraig]

So if I was genuinely interested in hearing about this I wouldn’t be allowed in because I’m male? Sounds like discrimination to me!

it doesn't say that does it

 

[Gromit]

Women.

Which women?

 

[Sea Star]

We will not be able to distinguish between a man who is fraudulent in claiming to feel like a woman and someone who genuinely feels themselves to be a woman. The law is there to protect us and given that 98 % of sexual violence on women and girls is committed by men, we need to be cautious. There's rather a lot of instances in the US where trans-women (mostly are probably fraudulent in the way I described above) have spied on, assaulted, raped and murdered women and girls. The law is a safety-net. I hope that explains it for you Ddraig.

The idea that cis men will make a legal declaration that they are a woman and then change pronouns and name - for life - in order to gain access to space that they can already gain access to seems a bit far fetched to me.

Also the US does not have self id so you have inadvertently supported my point.

Ireland does have self id and the UK has what is practically self id and has done for years.

Also, just saying that men use trans rights to attack or abuse women isn't enough. You have to prove that it is a significant risk if you're using that argument to remove rights from trans people.

If this is a debate why are no trans exclusionary responding to my points, made reasonably I think.

 

[1927]

On another point. If this is a commercial venture, charging an entrance fee, with a selection policy for attendees, has it been cleared with editor as it may well fall foul of the board policies!

 

[1927]

We do. What is so hard about this?

Who’s we?

 

[1927]

it doesn't say that does it

But if they are even defining who is a woman then by extension it seems that men wouldn’t be allowed!

 

[shygirl]

That's exclusionary. You've essentially decided that the other side of the argument has no validity and aren't letting us speak.

You've also decided that trans women have always been excluded which is really not true. I personally know a trans woman who works in a women's refugee. Have a Google, and you'll see that trans women have been accepted as women for a long time now.

You do realise that most cis women don't agree with your position.

No I haven't decided that. The messages we get loud and clear are that we're nazis, bigots, murderers, existence deniers, and such like, for raising concerns and that we shouldn't have an opportunity to debate. TRAs have reported women to political parties and employers demanding their expulsion/sacking, and have succeeded in some cases in bringing this about. And you say WE are not willing to debate. It's a distortion of the truth and I suspect most of you know that already.

Of course there's a few examples of TW working in protected spaces now, but TW, up until recently have had access to these.

 

[Sea Star]

We do. What is so hard about this?

Does we include me?

Answer that.

 

[Gromit]

We do. What is so hard about this?

So when you say we you are saying you are part of the The Woman's Place UK?

Because the question is at The Woman's Place UK they have five demands, they will be enforcing those demands. You are one of the one's determining at that event whether someone had a woman's voice or not?

 

[shygirl]

That's exclusionary. You've essentially decided that the other side of the argument has no validity and aren't letting us speak.

You've also decided that trans women have always been excluded which is really not true. I personally know a trans woman who works in a women's refugee. Have a Google, and you'll see that trans women have been accepted as women for a long time now.

You do realise that most cis women don't agree with your position.

I forgot to address your last point, I don't accept 'cis'. I am not a sub-set of woman, I am woman.

 

[Sea Star]

No I haven't decided that. The messages we get loud and clear are that we're nazis, bigots, murderers, existence deniers, and such like, for raising concerns and that we shouldn't have an opportunity to debate. TRAs have reported women to political parties and employers demanding their expulsion/sacking, and have succeeded in some cases in bringing this about. And you say WE are not willing to debate. It's a distortion of the truth and I suspect most of you know that already.

Of course there's a few examples of TW working in protected spaces now, but TW, up until recently have had access to these.

That fails to address any of my points except one and I don't believe you. I know for a fact that trans women have been widely accepted as women for a long time now, including in women's refuges. Can you show me evidence to the contrary?

 

[1927]

I forgot to address your last point, I don't accept 'cis'. I am not a sub-set of woman, I am woman.

But some women dont accept that, hence my original post! It’s a complete fuckfest!

 

[Sea Star]

I forgot to address your last point, I don't accept 'cis'. I am not a sub-set of woman, I am woman.

So am I. I am a subset of woman. Pleased to meet you!

 

[ddraig]

But if they are even defining who is a woman then by extension it seems that men wouldn’t be allowed!

no it doesn't, would be good to know if men are allowed to attend to confirm either way

 

[shygirl]

yes there are disgusting predatory males but still don't understand why you posted this as some kind of example, really confusing
do you generally campaign against predatory males who identify as males??

I'm not campaigning against anyone, I'm fighting to maintain protections for women and girls.

 

[Sea Star]

No I haven't decided that. The messages we get loud and clear are that we're nazis, bigots, murderers, existence deniers, and such like, for raising concerns and that we shouldn't have an opportunity to debate. TRAs have reported women to political parties and employers demanding their expulsion/sacking, and have succeeded in some cases in bringing this about. And you say WE are not willing to debate. It's a distortion of the truth and I suspect most of you know that already.

Of course there's a few examples of TW working in protected spaces now, but TW, up until recently have had access to these.

And yet it's trans women who don't have a platform, don't have reams and reams of articles in national newspapers, have representation on national TV or radio.

And here am I, and many, many others, happy to debate and discuss and all we hear from exclusionaries is you can't discuss anything with us because we're so evil.

 

[Sea Star]

I'm not campaigning against anyone, I'm fighting to maintain protections for women and girls.

You're not actually fighting. You're campaigning. And if you want to stop self id them that is a roll back of rights because we mostly have that now, with the exception of birth certificates.

 

[Gromit]

I'll answer who I think should determine who gets to decides who has a woman's voice.

The elected government of the people by the people. If they say trans women are women then as far as I'm concerned they are women. Then by your own rule trans women are amongst those that get to decide.

 

[shygirl]

do you worry these people will come to Cardiff?? can't you just ban these individuals who have done the attacking?
still confused, would I be able to attend for example? not that I want to jut wondering. And again, what is the criteria on which people will be refused entry or have their ticket cancelled and refunded? It doesn't look like a public meeting at all

Anyone who is genuinely interested in listening and sharing views in a respectful way is welcome to attend. Each time WPUK has announced an event, TRAs have stated their intention to buy up all the tickets to prevent other people who want to learn more from attending.

 

[shygirl]

So if I was genuinely interested in hearing about this I wouldn’t be allowed in because I’m male? Sounds like discrimination to me!

Men and women are invited to attend. What made you think it was women onl? The speakers are women, and I believe two of the WPUK events had trans-women on the panel.

 

[Sea Star]

Anyone who is genuinely interested in listening and sharing views in a respectful way is welcome to attend. Each time WPUK has announced an event, TRAs have stated their intention to buy up all the tickets to prevent other people who want to learn more from attending.

I've heard of too many people having their tickets refused. I would actually take you up on this if I could, but I suspect I would be refused entry. Also, Cardiff is too far.

I would respectfully be making lots of points and challenging anything that could be construed as hate speech, such as referring to trans women as parasites.

 

[shygirl]

So when you say we you are saying you are part of the The Woman's Place UK?

Because the question is at The Woman's Place UK they have five demands, they will be enforcing those demands. You are one of the one's determining at that event whether someone had a woman's voice or not?

I support the aims of WPUK, I'm not a member of any group, oh, apart from the Labour Party which I joined 2 years ago.