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A thank you to Brexiteers.

Ax^ said:
more progressive immigration policy is a load of shite to be fare and brexit currently re-enforced the London centric view point can see less investment going to other parts of the UK in the near future

also brexit strengthen populism with the United Kingdom it why we had years of Boris and the incoming truss
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On immigration you are wrong. The EU operates and requires a racist EU only migration policy and is seeking to seal its borders to shut to the rest of the world out, in particular the impoverished global south. Outside of the EU a more progressive approach is possible.

Brexit actually led to a collapse in the insurgent populist support - it went to the Tories as the election posed a choice between them and remainers (Labour, Liberals, SNP, Greens etc). As I have a million times before a Corbyn/McDonnell led Labour Party committed to delivering the popular vote and with a plan to re-shape the economy of the back of it would have presented an all together different opposition to Johnson. As it was the remainers in Labour emptied the hope and optimism out from the Corbyn surge.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
On immigration you are wrong. The EU operates and requires a racist EU only migration policy and is seeking to seal its borders to shut to the rest of the world out, in particular the impoverished global south. Outside of the EU a more progressive approach is possible.
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you are aware post brexit the UK has been trying to adopt the Australian model for immigration

including shipping migrates off to other countries to be settled and processed :hmm:
 
Ax^ said:
you are aware post brexit the UK has been trying to adopt the Australian model for immigration

including shipping migrates off to other countries to be settled and processed :hmm:
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The Government is perfectly entitled to attempt to. Just like a future one will be free to adopt an entirely different approach. That's because the EU is unable to set the policy now or in the future.
 
Ax^ said:
you are aware post brexit the UK has been trying to adopt the Australian model for immigration

including shipping migrates off to other countries to be settled and processed :hmm:
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I'll provide a brief summary of the way the next few posts will go:

"yeah but the EU is doing X so really its them who are evil. Britain has a chance to be democratic lefty wonderland now"
"Leave was racist"
"UR BOURGOUSIE"
"My Band can't go abroad"
"Remainers are entitled fucks"


etc. etc.
 
Ax^ said:
brexit strengthen populism
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Yes. And the populism previously mentioned, which is spreading around in the EU, is anti-EU, though they dont want to throw out the baby with the water.

The Brexit workers movement also have to see how they are going to leave NATO.

Without radicalism, these are just dreams.

If there is a crisis in capitalism, then of course, the strongest and best organised will prevail; the extreme conservatives. After all, that is what this is really all about - a conflict between the conservatives and liberals in the elite.

Having got rid of many guarantees for workers and the public generally, the rest will be got rid off and the UK will end up like Russia, well on the way to Victorianism, banning Gays , Abortion etc. Standing up for "Traditional/Family/European" values - but never going into details because that would frighten everybody.

The strikes mentioned are economic strikes, and with Brexit, it is far easier to ban strikes and unions than in the EU.

The attempt to ban important strikes in the EU was made in the Draft for an EU Constitution, which was defeated in the referendums in France and the Netherlands.

Please note that the UK "Left", in the form of the CWI Socialist Party, though it opposed the Draft Constitution in its glossy paper, categorically refused to campagin against the Draft Constitution, claiming that the EU was a capitalist organisation and it didn't concern them... as if the UK state, a monarchical and capitalist organisation, wasn't the same.

As I mentioned - charlatans.

Look at George Galloway - a populist alt-right - with his "Marxist-Leninist" party...
Friend of the gamekeepers and against Scottish independence.
 
Artaxerxes said:
I'll provide a brief summary of the way the next few posts will go:

"yeah but the EU is doing X so really its them who are evil. Britain has a chance to be democratic lefty wonderland now"
"Leave was racist"
"UR BOURGOUSIE"
"My Band can't go abroad"
"Remainers are entitled fucks"


etc. etc.
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I think you may have over-looked my regular and repetitive 'ignostic' rants calling for plagues on both neoliberal 'houses' :D
 
Smokeandsteam said:
Brexit actually led to a collapse in the insurgent populist support
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Prime minister from 2019 to 2022 was, um?

Likely prime minister from 2022–? is, um?

Labour leader from 2020–? is, um?

If Brexit has reshaped the political landscape, it's done so in a way that has turned the main right party into an avowedly populist r/w party and dragged the main left party far to the right.

I agree with you btw regarding the way that the Corbyn/McDonnell platform was scuppered by remain labour types. It was a massive missed opportunity. But that's gone up in smoke now.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
The benefits of Brexit have been spelt out, it's just that planet remain refuses to acknowledge them. To do so would render the endless sulk even more ridiculous maybe?

Put in its simplest form the benefits can be summarized as: greater democracy and democratic control over the national economy, the removal of undemocratic constraints on state aid, planning, investment and management of the economy, more progressive immigration rules and an escape from a doomed EU neo-liberal project which will inevitably lead to further political and economic union and which will inevitably lead to further withering away of democratic accountability and control. As night follows day right wing populism will continue to grow across Europe in response.

Some of us can see that - in the midst of a cost of living crisis and recession - that the debate about how we should respond to it will deepen and sharpen. Questions about public ownership, nationalisation, planning, democratic control are everywhere. The trade unions have scored spectacular victories and disputes are happening now across the economy. A general strike is back on the agenda. The range of levers that government can pull – procurement, import and export control, public ownership, regulation, investment in infrastructure, subsidies for new industries, trade policy – are easier, simpler and made more possible without the dead hand of the Troika (the ECB, the EU and the IMF).

As I said in post #10797:

What would be a disaster for the left, compounding other disasters, would be to now swim along with liberalism in assuming that the answer and the necessary debate about these systemic problems is best done through the prism of the EU. What is needed instead is a vision for what a better economy: based on economic justice, collective bargaining and a generational shift in money and wealth away from the 1% and back towards the rest of us: and to consider how that might be achieved post Brexit. Neither the EU or the existing order in the UK offers anything like this.

As we are on the Brexit thread I will say again that its real tragedy was the defeat of a disorientated Labour leadership and a manifesto that at least pointed in that direction, and would in a post Brexit economy have taken a small but seismically important step away from the path we've been on since 1973. As for those who say an alternative vision is too ambitious and can't be done I'd point out that the left used to possess such ambition and ideas and went out and argued for them and stood by them:. In fact, in 1973 the Labour Party's Alterative Economic Strategy set out an economic plan - also ground in an anguished debate about the EU - based on a political understanding of economic policy as class struggle and aimed to impose greater working class political control on each of the forms of capital. A similar approach is needed in 2022 to unpick the damage of the last 50 years.

It is only possible to deny these possibilities now exist if you assume that Britain will have right wing governments in perpetuity. That Truss and Starmer are undefeatable. I don't accept that for one second. It's bizarre that people on here get away with it, given that we came within a few thousand votes of a Government in 2017 that would have been genuinely social democratic. Their authority diminishes with each new crisis and their utter lack of a vision or credible response, the desire for change as the perma-crisis lengthens and deepens.

The other, equally ludicrous charge, is to pretend that having left the EU in 2020 with a dysfunctional tory government (elected in no small measure to due to Labour Remainers) and the worst pandemic in living memory that a) everything that has gone wrong is due to Brexit and that b) there are no benefits and the proof is the last 2 years. Both arguments deliberately evade the facts of a global capitalist economic crisis and empty out the need for struggle and organization on our side: pre-requisites' for change in our favour at every point in history.

It used to be the left who welcomed change and the right that wanted things to remain the same. Now now. The inability to envisage what a progressive government or even better us could do - and the concomitant - meek and craven argument that the arrangements that existed up until 2016 were the 'best we can hope for' is indicative of a colossal and profound political disorientation.
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I notice you use the term ‘Brexit’ and later reference ‘Britain’.
My take is that the vote was for the whole of the United Kingdom.
A United Kingdom that has a land border with the EU.
So in terms of the benefits you allude to, what is the benefit for peace and harmony related to that border?
I imagine your answer might contain some kind of riff regarding direction of travel…which is something yet to happen and is therefore not a benefit.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
I agree with you btw regarding the way that the Corbyn/McDonnell platform was scuppered by remain labour types. It was a massive missed opportunity. But that's gone up in smoke now.
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It has. But, Starmer and his pals won't be here long. None of the conditions that gave rise to 'Corbynism' have gone away. In fact, they have become sharper and more acute. The morbid condition of the late capitalist economy and its symptoms: wage decline, collapsing standards of living, food and energy poverty, negative or anemic growth, environmental blowback, pandemic etc are all here for good and will get worse. Of course the right see the possibilities for their side opening up. It's about time some of those who profess to be on ours do as well.
 
Karl Masks said:
can you cite a credible source for this please
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Certainly:



The rise of the racists in the EU parliament:

In the Wake of Xenophobia: The New Racism in Europe | United Nations

Europe was torn apart by fascism in the 1930s, and when the Second World War ended in 1945, remnants of extreme right parties re-emerged on the margins of politics. By the 1980s, when the forgetting had started, some began to pick up protest votes as immigrants became an issue, driven by tabloid...
www.un.org www.un.org

Evidence of the EU directly facilitating human rights abuses:

Blogs

The SOAS community weigh in on some of the most challenging issues of our time, from human rights and climate change, to decolonisation, race, identity and freedom of speech.
study.soas.ac.uk study.soas.ac.uk



Any comments?
 
Smokeandsteam said:
It has. But, Starmer and his pals won't be here long. None of the conditions that gave rise to 'Corbynism' have gone away. In fact, they have become sharper and more acute. The morbid condition of the late capitalist economy and its symptoms: wage decline, collapsing standards of living, food and energy poverty, negative or anemic growth, environmental blowback, pandemic etc are all here for good and will get worse. Of course the right see the possibilities for their side opening up. It's about time some of those who profess to be on ours do as well.
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but the labour right has shut out any left wing alternative to starmer so if he does go he'll be replaced by aonother right winger
 
Smokeandsteam said:
Certainly:



The rise of the racists in the EU parliament:

In the Wake of Xenophobia: The New Racism in Europe | United Nations

Europe was torn apart by fascism in the 1930s, and when the Second World War ended in 1945, remnants of extreme right parties re-emerged on the margins of politics. By the 1980s, when the forgetting had started, some began to pick up protest votes as immigrants became an issue, driven by tabloid...
www.un.org www.un.org

Evidence of the EU directly facilitating human rights abuses:

Blogs

The SOAS community weigh in on some of the most challenging issues of our time, from human rights and climate change, to decolonisation, race, identity and freedom of speech.
study.soas.ac.uk study.soas.ac.uk



Any comments?
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what part, if any, did the british government play in the creation of those policies?

How does our isolation from the eu change those policies?

Are our current policies better?
 
Karl Masks said:
what part, if any, did the british government play in the creation of those policies?

How does our isolation from the eu change those policies?

Are our current policies better?
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Karl, let's deal with one thing at a time. Do you have any comments on the credible research you asked for and which I supplied? Or just more questions?
 
Smokeandsteam said:
'Shut out left wing alternatives'
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I think some people forget how wildly popular he was with the general populace at the time. Handily winning elections does tend to "shut out" anything different to what's proven to work. Whether it's consciously or not. The left side of the party did not have a hope in hell of anything until after Brown lost. And it's not because oh they hate the lefties and blahblahblah, it's because they were winning up 'til then.

Edit: If Corbyn had beaten May, the right wing of the party wouldn't have stood a look-in for years either.
 
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Smokeandsteam said:
The Government is perfectly entitled to attempt to. Just like a future one will be free to adopt an entirely different approach. That's because the EU is unable to set the policy now or in the future.
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you know the uk always had control over its immigration policy for non eu emigrants right?

only thing that really changed is more control of immigration from the eu

:hmm:
 
Chz said:
I think some people forget how wildly popular he was with the general populace at the time.
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Certainly for a period he was and definitely when compared to Starmer (who is hugely unpopular). Which kind of adds evidence for my point: history and political ideas are dynamic.
 
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Ax^ said:
you know the uk always had control over its immigration policy for non eu emigrants right?

only thing that really changed is more control of immigration from the eu

:hmm:
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I did. If you’ll cast your mind back Cameron used the excuse of open migration from the EU to impose further restrictions on the rest of the world. A key reason for lots of BAME Brummies voting to leave actually.

Thank to Ax for reminding of us of this and adding to the weight of the argument.
 
Has brexit lead to a reduction in restrictions on immigration from the rest of the world or lead to more

not sure how you can proclaim we had to leave the EU due to its racist immigration policies when it lead to Patel and more restrictions but at some point in the distant future that can be changed
 
Ax^ said:
Has brexit lead to a reduction in restrictions on immigration from the rest of the world or lead to more

not sure how you can proclaim we had to leave the EU due to its racist immigration policies when it lead to Patel and more restrictions but at some point in the distant future that can be changed
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Brexit didn’t lead to that. The election of a Tory government did.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
The benefits of Brexit have been spelt out, it's just that planet remain refuses to acknowledge them. To do so would render the endless sulk even more ridiculous maybe?
Click to expand...
I think that where the misunderstanding is happening is that when people ask about the "benefits of Brexit" they want examples of real things that have really happened in the real world as a real result of brexit. And that can be convincingly shown to have come about because of Brexit, rather than have happened to happen after Brexit.

What they don't want is the list of "possibilities", which have been outlined ad nauseum since before the vote.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
Brexit didn’t lead to that. The election of a Tory government did.
Click to expand...
This is the weakest point of your argument. The way immigration policy has gone since 2016 has very clearly been a response to/enabled by the Brexit referendum. It's been a disgusting shitshow that shows absolutely no sign of changing any time soon.

And this was predicted by many on here back in 2016. It was all too foreseeable.
 
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