A question for those who still support a Brexit

[SpackleFrog]

Bit of an 'ends justify the means' fellow, though, wasn't he, old Vlad.

No. I'd recommend reading the article that quote is from if you think so. Lenin: The Defeat of One's Own Government in the Imperialist War

 

[SpackleFrog]

Indeed. It's what this thread is all about, essentially. What are your political objectives, and whom are you prepared to see hurt in order to further them?

Again, no.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Again, no.

It is what this thread is about - you might not agree with its premises, but it is surely the intention of the thread to point out a bad thing happening because of brexit and to ask people whether they think this is a price worth (someone else) paying in order to get brexit. That's very precisely 'do the ends justify the means'.

 

[SpackleFrog]

It is what this thread is about - you might not agree with its premises, but it is surely the intention of the thread to point out a bad thing happening because of brexit and to ask people whether they think this is a price worth (someone else) paying in order to get brexit. That's very precisely 'do the ends justify the means'.

No. That is not what is being discussed. You and others want the discussion to be about how some EU citizens living in Britain will lose rights because of Brexit but that isn't what is happening. The lives of migrant workers - from within and outside the EU - are being made difficult by the Tory govt because the social basis for the Tory govt is in large part built on xenophobia and racism. That was the case before the referendum. This is not new.

If this was a discussion about whether the ends justify the means, then people would simply respond to you and others and ask whether cancelling Brexit and maintaining Britain's membership of a white supremacist economic trade bloc justified ignoring an agreed democratic process. But nobody on this thread with anything worth saying wants to have that discussion because it's boring and pretty bloody obvious.

It's not about Brexit. It's about austerity, crisis and capitalism. This stuff didn't start with the referendum. 2016 was not Year Zero.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

2016 was not Year Zero.

Of course it wasn't. But this thread was started to discuss 'settled status'. You might want this thread to be about something else, but it isn't.

You seem not to have read my post very carefully - I very clearly signposted that 'you may not agree with the basic premises'.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Of course it wasn't. But this thread was started to discuss 'settled status'. You might want this thread to be about something else, but it isn't.

Which has nothing to do with the referendum and everything to do with the Tory govt.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Which has nothing to do with the referendum and everything to do with the Tory govt.

I am not sure I understand you. The 'settled status' issue has nothing to do with the referendum just abstractly down to the Tory government? The Tory government have not influenced the referendum?

 

[SpackleFrog]

I am not sure I understand you. The 'settled status' issue has nothing to do with the referendum just abstractly down to the Tory government? The Tory government have not influenced the referendum?

I mean while it might be possible to argue that what is happening is the Tory govt's interpretation of the referendum, even then it's still not about the referendum because this is actually just a continuation of Tory policy over many years.

 

[Pickman's model]

It has to be. Sorry.

Name one thing I said which isn't true.

Just all the things you said about me

 

[Treacle Toes]

I mean while it might be possible to argue that what is happening is the Tory govt's interpretation of the referendum, even then it's still not about the referendum because this is actually just a continuation of Tory policy over many years.

I don't disagree with that completely however the 'continuation of Tory policy over many years' has unquestionably had an influence on society and the thoughts and values of those of us within it. As such, those values and reactions to them are very much evident in the reasons why people voted the way they did leave or remain. I don't believe you can separate those things.

 

[Poi E]

Disappointed by FLB's video. No fights, no wrecking the bar.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It appears that the so-called Common Market 2.0 proposal is pretty close to what I suggested earlier - leaving the EU, but joining EFTA, keeping free movement pretty much as it is.

I don't want the UK to leave the EU, but I could live with that. It leaves the political union but stays in the economic union, basically. I would file it under 'the bleedin obvious' as the compromise position that 'honours the referendum' (hate that phrase) while protecting other concerns such as NI and EU citizen rights.

I don't doubt that I will be called a liberal etc for such a suggestion, continuing as it does a close allegiance with a neo-liberal institution. But in the absence of any alternative that I've heard of that doesn't have nasty immediate consequences (and afaic, it's one neolib institution allying with another anyway - this is not the place to have that fight), god help me I agree with that old thatcherite wrecker Ken Clarke.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I don't disagree with that completely however the 'continuation of Tory policy over many years' has unquestionably had an influence on society and the thoughts and values of those of us within it. As such, those values and reactions to them are very much evident in the reasons why people voted the way they did leave or remain. I don't believe you can separate those things.

yeah, I won't disagree with that either. I'm responding though to the purpose of the thread, which is basically "Are you happy now? Migrant workers are being victimised because you wouldn't vote in favour of a white supremacist trade bloc! Is it all worth it? Are you proud of yourself" etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

It appears that the so-called Common Market 2.0 proposal is pretty close to what I suggested earlier - leaving the EU, but joining EFTA, keeping free movement pretty much as it is.

I don't want the UK to leave the EU, but I could live with that. It leaves the political union but stays in the economic union, basically. I would file it under 'the bleedin obvious' as the compromise position that 'honours the referendum' (hate that phrase) while protecting other concerns such as NI and EU citizen rights.

I don't doubt that I will be called a liberal etc for such a suggestion, continuing as it does a close allegiance with a neo-liberal institution. But in the absence of any alternative that I've heard of that doesn't have nasty immediate consequences (and afaic, it's one neolib institution allying with another anyway - this is not the place to have that fight), god help me I agree with that old thatcherite wrecker Ken Clarke.

Shouldn't have thought people would start calling you a liberal for such a suggestion.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fuck off, pickers. Twat.

 

[Pickman's model]

Fuck off, pickers. Twat.

Yeh. For the umpteenth time I'm not Pickers

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Disappointed by FLB's video. No fights, no wrecking the bar.

It is a shame. However I've been having convos with colleagues referencing this thread today.

One guy recognised the bar and said that the last time he went there were so many Brits that they'd started breaking stuff and smashing glasses..

He basically left sharpish..and is not planning on returning. Says its been getting worse and worse Another polish colleague then jumped in saying the same thing had happened to his favourite bar too (wódka bar in Krk).

Anyway, clearly I'm talking gibberish, as are the Poles I work with.

We don't know nothing, and you Brits over there know everything and are 100% correct and righteous. As always. Plus ca change.

 

[Poi E]

Time to have a word with management, it would seem. Taking the coin of reprobates.

 

[SpackleFrog]

It is a shame.

Is it a shame that no one smashed anything in your video and you've had to fall back on "my mate said this one time"?

Anyway, clearly I'm talking gibberish, as are the Poles I work with.

I'm sure your Polish workmates speak total sense but you're British so by your own analysis you're incapable of talking anything except arrogant self entitled shite.

 

[Maggot]

No. That is not what is being discussed.


It's not about Brexit. It's about austerity, crisis and capitalism. This stuff didn't start with the referendum. 2016 was not Year Zero.

You obviously know better than the OP what this thread is about.

 

[ska invita]

I'm sorry but this is utterly inconsistent with your posts since 2016.
You've argued that those who voted Leave were getting into bed with the far right, you've argued for free trade because it supports freedom of movement, you opposed the UK leaving the EU on economic grounds, you've implied that those that voted leave are immiseratists.

hard to go over years of posts without the intricacies of conversations, I dont agree with your summary - in a relatively brief way Id say

**The post you quoted of mine remains true and i dont think anything ive ever posted contradicts that particular point. I didnt vote for Mays Brexit, but Id come to terms with it that it was happening, so long as EU citizens living in the UK arent hurt by it. You wont find a post of me saying Breixt Must Be Stopped or the like - Ive only now said that a Brexit that includes Settled Status must be stopped and Ive only said that since I found out last Xmas what the reality of settled status is predicted to be like. If a Brexit deal passes that negates Settled Status you wont hear a peep out of me against it.



**On lexiters getting into bed with the far right it would be a mischaracterisation to say that i ever argued it in absolutists terms, but there was clear overlap and wilful blindness at times, Galloway on the platform smoking cigars with that "too much talking foreign in public" utter fucking cunt Farage a totemic example, and i see it at play again on this issue of EU citizen rights here. Kicking out hundreds of thousands of 'foreigners' is a far right wet dream. We Voted Leave so Leave. Theres only one position to take on that, in my mind. Against it.



**I very much doubt if Ive ever argued positively for free trade. On the thread about protectionism no one joined in. Talking to myself as i did on that thread I was left more convinced by the position of Militant and Socialist Party as opposed to the Bennites in the 70s debates on it, that protectionism is ultimately counterproductive. Hardly free trade cheerleading.

Freedom of Movement, now its here, is a powerful thing, especially so for those (like me and my family) who have experienced the Iron Curtain - theres no denying that. Thats not to say I'm happy with the status quo. But what change next? For me it cant possibly be one that turns illegal hundreds of thousands of people from the place where they currently reside.



**Ive googled immiseratists - makes people poorer. Well on the subject of "is the cost worth it" theres no one who doesnt think brexit would hit the economy, which means some degree of job losses. Thats shit if its you that loses your job, but i think lexiters who see a tory-led brexit as better than the status quo would agree, without much grumbling, its a price worth paying for the overall potential benefit.

And the principle of paying a price for the overall common good is one I'm personally committed to. But hundreds of thousands of "othered" people made illegal from the country in which they currently live, at the behest of a racist and far-right pandering tory party, is a price of a different magnitude, to me at least. I doubt immiseratist captures the misery.

 

[SpackleFrog]

You obviously know better than the OP what this thread is about.

Yep.

 

[Treacle Toes]

yeah, I won't disagree with that either. I'm responding though to the purpose of the thread, which is basically "Are you happy now? Migrant workers are being victimised because you wouldn't vote in favour of a white supremacist trade bloc! Is it all worth it? Are you proud of yourself" etc.

I think that's the worst possible reading of the OP tbh.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I think that's the worst possible reading of the OP tbh.

I can be charitable and say it's not consciously intended but that's what it is.

 

[redsquirrel]

**On lexiters getting into bed with the far right it would be a mischaracterisation to say that i ever argued it in absolutists terms,

No it's not this is what you said (my emphasis)

And I think UKIP are a vote-friendly Far Right, but feel free to disagree.
For me the answer is never and under no circumstances, and thats why nothing on earth would make me have voted for Exit.

The only way to read that is that you are claiming that leave voters are in bed with the far-right.

**I very much doubt if Ive ever argued positively for free trade. On the thread about protectionism no one joined in. Talking to myself as i did on that thread I was left more convinced by the position of Militant and Socialist Party as opposed to the Bennites in the 70s debates on it, that protectionism is ultimately counterproductive. Hardly free trade cheerleading.

Again this is not true you said

... which is preferable of the two? It seems to me that at least non-protectionism doesn't pander to and reinforce nationalism.

Concluding remark seems to be neither has much better a record than the other, which leads me to think that on balance free trade is better in that it at least has an internationalist, less nation state competitive culture

It may be reluctant support but that is quite clear support.

**Ive googled immiseratists - makes people poorer. Well on the subject of "is the cost worth it" theres no one who doesnt think brexit would hit the economy, which means some degree of job losses. Thats shit if its you that loses your job, but i think lexiters who see a tory-led brexit as better than the status quo would agree, without much grumbling, its a price worth paying for the overall potential benefit.

The last sentence in this quote shows that (despite posters explaining this to a number of times previously) you still don't understand the communist criticism of economics.

(FYI immiserationism is the below)

Whats the name of that marxist tradition that actively seeks/hopes the economy will completely collapse so as to usher in the revolution? Its a shit plan that, whatever its called.

 

[Treacle Toes]

yeah, I won't disagree with that either. I'm responding though to the purpose of the thread, which is basically "Are you happy now? Migrant workers are being victimised because you wouldn't vote in favour of a white supremacist trade bloc! Is it all worth it? Are you proud of yourself" etc.

This is just as reductive an interpretation as believing everyone who voted leave is racist isn't it? You are making a back handed accusation that those who voted remain did so to support 'a white supremacist trade bloc'. It's akin to saying 'No, you are the real racist' This thread is littered with similar accusations too.

The way I see it there was a fair amount of holding one's nose no matter which way people voted. How could there not be? The whole fucking thing was a farce given the misinformation and scaremongering that went on from both camps during the lead up to the referendum. I don't think most people had all the implications of their decision nailed down at all.

 

[SpackleFrog]

This is just as reductive an interpretation as believing everyone who voted leave is racist isn't it? You are making a back handed accusation that those who voted remain did so to support 'a white supremacist trade bloc'. It's akin to saying 'No, you are the real racist' This thread is littered with similar accusations too.

The way I see it there was a fair amount of holding one's nose no matter which way people voted. How could there not be? The whole fucking thing was a farce given the misinformation and scaremongering that went on from both camps during the lead up to the referendum. I don't think most people had all the implications of their decision nailed down at all.

Perhaps I wasn't clear - I'm not doing that. I'm saying people could do that. I'm not interested in telling people that voted Remain that that's what they consciously voted to do, so I'm irritated others want to do the reverse.

 

[krtek a houby]

Oh dear

Man with anti-Brexit badge detained at Gatwick

 

[Steel Icarus]

A martyr for these interesting times.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

TBF the objection might have been to the word 'Bollocks'.

To test this someone will have to go through Gatwick with a badge saying 'Bollocks to Remain'.

Which does sound a bit like a note to a surgeon.