5 Cyclists dead in 1 week in London

[Orang Utan]

That's certainly my experience over 26 years - of course you can't regulate for how loud people turn it up - and in-ear and noise-cancelling ones are a no-no - but then I'm sure there are people out there who deliberately wear earplugs to keep the wind out.

I doubt it.
Most people wear them cos listening to music while you travel is awesome.

 

[Orang Utan]

This is a bollocks of an argument. "If cyclists shouldn't listen to music neither should drivers, ner ner ner ner ner!" Straight out of the playground.

The fact is that people listening to music are less aware of what's going on around them than those that are using all their senses, regardless of their mode of transport. But if a driver fails to hear the car behind him while turning chances are there are a few dented panels, whereas the cyclist gets wiped-out.

I don't agree with legislating to ban earphones, but cyclists should take responsibility for their own safety as well. Listening to music in London rush hour traffic, thus depriving themselves of a potentially life-saving sense, is fucking moronic.

It may be, but people will still continue to do it cos they love it so much, like smoking and drinking too much.

 

[Orang Utan]

If I thought there was a reasonable chance that listen to music in the car could get me killed or seriously injured I'd have the stereo removed.

I'm not sure that's how our brains work. We certainly don't apply that to everything we do.

 

[Pickman's model]

What gave you the idea that I was after an apology?

My posts on this thread are there for all to see. As are yours.

and what a sorry, evidence-free sight they are

 

[Pickman's model]

It may be, but people will still continue to do it cos they love it so much, like smoking and drinking too much.

you think listening to loud music is an addiction like drinking and smoking? btw how much is enough to smoke?

 

[8ball]

btw how much is enough to smoke?

Like units of alcohol - it's 3 fags a day for a woman, 4 for a man.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As I say, I don't agree with banning headphones. I just think people who wear them in city traffic are utter dullards.

We're pretty much in agreement then, I think. This is also my position (although 'dullards' is a little further than I'd go ).

 

[Pickman's model]

Very interesting stats. Where there are comparable causes with reverse fault - disobeying junction priorities, for instance - the other vehicle is at fault roughly twice as much as the cyclist.(And the top cause is 100% the driver's fault, turning right into a cyclist, ffs.)

Those stats bear out the notion that cyclists are the most vigilant and careful of all road users, which given their vulnerability is not a surprise.

there's a logic fuck-up there. can you spot it?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

and what a sorry, evidence-free sight they are

You still here?

Welcome to my newly established ignore list. Bye.

 

[8ball]

there's a logic fuck-up there. can you spot it?

Unless there are more than one I think we've already been over it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Unless there are more than one I think we've already been over it.

i'm thinking here of all the incidents in which no one was injured or only slightly injured, which are not recorded in the statistics presented. littlebabyjesus' assertion about cyclists being the most vigilant and careful road users may be backed up by the inclusion of such incidents: but without the data to support it, it is untenable. tell you what, let's have the stats up for horse-drawn hearses and see how many injuries they've been involved in over the same years. they might be more careful and vigilant than the cyclists.

 

[Pickman's model]

You still here?

Welcome to my newly established ignore list. Bye.

grand

 

[8ball]

i'm thinking here of all the incidents in which no one was injured or only slightly injured, which are not recorded in the statistics presented. littlebabyjesus' assertion about cyclists being the most vigilant and careful road users may be backed up by the inclusion of such incidents: but without the data to support it, it is untenable. tell you what, let's have the stats up for horse-drawn hearses and see how many injuries they've been involved in over the same years. they might be more careful and vigilant than the cyclists.

Similar thing, really - evidence vs. interpretation.

For instance, I was never a terribly vigilant cyclist but never had many accidents (never with a car or truck - usually just crashing into things/falling off).

 

[fredfelt]

We wouldn't be having these arguments without the CS plan. It's a stepping stone to better cycle infrastructure. It a rough way of leading to a safer future. That's why TFL did it, not because it was ideal but it was fairly easy to do and didn't cost too much. It moved things forward and now look how mobilised people are !

That's a good point, and a valid argument where you have weak neo-liberal government which is afraid to have any vision over and above that the market requires.

They have it the wrong way around. TFL attempt to accommodate what is expected to be an ever increasing volume of motorised traffic. It's a self fulfilling plan.

What's needed is a vision and a plan to where car dependency is reduced and people can get around much easier without feeling the need to be encumbered with a car.

The problem is that their the half-arsed attempts at person friendly streets begrudgingly accommodates active travel, rather than plans for and therefore encourage active travel.

 

[co-op]

From my experience, cycling was been increasily significantly in the early 2000s before any interventions. There was a particular boost after the congestion charge came in in 2003.

I was a proper London cyclist in that era and I am absolutely sure from my own observations (yeah yeah unscientific) that it was the 2005 tube bombings that was the biggest one-day increase in cycling I have ever seen. It's never mentioned in the debates I see - maybe becuase the official narrative is that London Can Take It, when the reality was the tubes were running half empty for months.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Similar thing, really - evidence vs. interpretation.

For instance, I was never a terribly vigilant cyclist but never had many accidents (never with a car or truck - usually just crashing into things/falling off).

I'm not going to argue any more over the point except to say that I said 'bears out', meaning that it is the kind of thing I'd expect to see. But I'm not going to be drawn into endless wrangling over details in the wording of posts of the form that Pickman's seems to prefer.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

I was a proper London cyclist in that era and I am absolutely sure from my own observations (yeah yeah unscientific) that it was the 2005 tube bombings that was the biggest one-day increase in cycling I have ever seen. It's never mentioned in the debates I see - maybe becuase the official narrative is that London Can Take It, when the reality was the tubes were running half empty for months.

Yep - that too.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

I doubt it.
Most people wear them cos listening to music while you travel is awesome.

I like to hear the world myself. Each to their own I guess.

 

[gentlegreen]

It depends on where and when.
Most of the traffic I encounter just needs a bit of ambient electronica mixed-in to de-fuse, but I would like a volume control so I can drown out the M32 when I pass under it twice a day.

If I'm out in the country, I may well choose to listen to real sky larks rather than RVW's interpretation.

Every so often when it's safe to do so, I'll get the full dance experience where the music takes me past the pain barrier and I become one with the bike.

Without music it becomes "exercise", or worse, "sport" or "commuting"...

 

[Brixton Hatter]

Can't remember if it's been mentioned on this thread yet, but there's a mass 'die-in' outside TfL's offices a week on Friday to protest about the recent deaths and lack of movement on infrastructure. From 5pm to 6.30pm.

https://www.facebook.com/events/568751353179586/?ref_newsfeed_story_type=regular

Should make this month's Critical Mass pretty busy!

 

[Orang Utan]

I like to hear the world myself. Each to their own I guess.

I find that being alone with my own thoughts = autopilot on bike. Not good.

 

[fredfelt]

It depends on where and when.
Most of the traffic I encounter just needs a bit of ambient electronica mixed-in to de-fuse, but I would like a volume control so I can drown out the M32 when I pass under it twice a day.

If I'm out in the country, I may well choose to listen to real sky larks rather than RVW's interpretation.

Every so often when it's safe to do so, I'll get the full dance experience where the music takes me past the pain barrier and I become one with the bike.

Without music it becomes "exercise", or worse, "sport" or "commuting"...

I rarely listen to music on a bike but where there's constant traffic music through headphones are okay. There's always something behind you so it's doesn't help to know if something is behind you IYKYIM! You can always hear a horn with headphones in.

It's only on quiet roads when I start to rely on my hearing. As there is not constant traffic it helps to know if something is coming.

As an aside a couple of years ago I did a solo cycle tour taking in Holland. I had some things to think about. Anyway for a couple of occasions I enjoyed getting stoned, putting headphones in and then pottering along a cycle routes to my next destination. Not once did I feel at risk, or that I put myself or anyone else at risk at all while I quietly floated along.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

Look at this shit article on the BBC website:

8 radical solutions to protect cyclists

- Introduce bike licences and numberplates
- Ban vehicles from city centres
- Allow cycling on the pavement
- Allow cyclists to jump red lights
- Ban headphones
- Cyclists to wear body armour
- Build elevated cycling routes
- Scrap traffic lights and road signs altogether

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24998730

None of the solutions involve separating bikes and cars at junctions, or building infrastructure (apart from the slightly fantastical 'Build Elevated Cycling Routes').

One of the reasons media coverage of the cycling debate has got better is because many journalists are cyclists themselves (e.g. Peter Walker at the Guardian), or work with plenty of cyclists (Evening Standard.) But rubbish articles like this are still being penned by people who appear to know little about what cycling in London is like.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I

As an aside a couple of years ago I did a solo cycle tour taking in Holland. I had some things to think about. Anyway for a couple of occasions I enjoyed getting stoned, putting headphones in and then pottering along a cycle routes to my next destination. Not once did I feel at risk, or that I put myself or anyone else at risk at all while I quietly floated along.

Dutch cycling infrastructure is, to our eyes at least, unbelievably good, both in the cities and countryside. Be brilliant if so many people took up cycling that we could move towards that.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

Dutch cycling infrastructure is, to our eyes at least, unbelievably good, both in the cities and countryside. Be brilliant if so many people took up cycling that we could move towards that.

This video - although a bit twee and with some dodgy background music - shows the variety of Dutch infra

 

[Brixton Hatter]

Jesus fuck - another one (in Bristol)

Cyclist dies after collision with oil tanker in Failand
A cyclist has died after being in a collision with an oil tanker in Failand near Bristol, police have said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-25023176

 

[co-op]

This video - although a bit twee and with some dodgy background music - shows the variety of Dutch infra

*sigh*

I mean this is what does my head in about things like the Parliamentary Transport Committee having a look at all these deaths and pondering "what do we do to stop it?", like it's this incredibly complex and maybe insoluble issue when it's blatantly incredibly easy, just go to a fucking country where they've done it, take note and implement. I'm old enough that I can remember when all the Dutch infrastructure etc was all new and exciting, but much of it's been in place now for 40 years, it's just political will that's missing in the UK.

For me it's obvious that it's inseparable from the right-wing triumph of this past 30 years in the UK - cars are so obviously a Daily Mail, tory issue that it's almost a point of honour with these wankers now that cyclists and pedestrians etc should be made to suffer for refusing to participate in the consumerism, the privatisation of public space, the obsessive, untrusting individualism that cars embody, the bullying hierarchy of the streets that uncontrolled vehicles impose, the massive handouts to corporate elites that they enable the way they can be used to flaunt status, the way that they can impose another few hours a day on the work treadmill for all sorts of people who can barely afford them but need them to join in...etc etc.

Maybe most bizarre of all the way that all this can attract the support of little Clarksons on the left who reflexively line up with the elites on this one. It's a dead giveaway of a tory-under-the-skin for me.

 

[8ball]

Why not come out all the way and say that only Tories drive cars?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why not come out all the way and say that only Tories drive cars?

I'll go so far as to say that it is a Tory attitude to reflexively blame cyclist behaviour for cyclist deaths on the roads. It is similar to the attitude that sees the unemployed blamed for their joblessness, and other attitudes such as those that place blame for crime levels at the door of single mothers.

That is archetypally tory in its approach - ignore the collective responsibility and the potential for solutions at the collective societal level; don't look beyond individuals whenever looking at a problem or apportioning blame; deny responsibility. Oh, and simply ignore any evidence that contradicts your position.

 

[8ball]

I'll go so far as to say that it is a Tory attitude to reflexively blame cyclist behaviour for cyclist deaths on the roads.

Is it New Labour to reflexively blame HGV drivers and Lib Dem to blame car drivers?