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5 Cyclists dead in 1 week in London

andysays said:
It's worth remembering that there are things which cyclists (and other road users) can do which are not breaking the law, but can still contribute to them being involved in serious accidents.

One of them, which I unfortunately witness all too often, is attempting to undertake in the driver's blind spot an HGV which is signalling to turn left
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I agree that is a nuts thing to do. Especially when they are indicating to go left.

But our 'infrastructure' (Advanced Stop Lines, and their feeder lanes) in many cases actually encourages cyclists up the left of a lorry. Personally, I won't do it myself unless I am absolutely sure that the lights won't change whilst I'm doing so. I imagine many cyclists are making the same judgement as me. It's safer to be in front of the traffic and get a quick getaway when the lights go green, instead of being squashed up against the kerb in the middle of a queue of traffic.

What you can't stop as a cyclist is someone overtaking you, then cutting in on the left, like in that incident I posted earlier on in the thread.
 
There was another bike incident in Camden Town this afternoon, cyclist hit by a lorry at the main junction, don't know if the cyclist was killed.
 
marty21 said:
There was another bike incident in Camden Town this afternoon, cyclist hit by a lorry at the main junction, don't know if the cyclist was killed.
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From BBC Local Live
_71186732_febb5fc9-6381-4c0f-9dc5-a015ce391fb1.jpg
London Ambulance Service says a man was treated at the scene for a "minor head injury" and taken to St Mary's Hospital.
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Brixton Hatter said:
I agree that is a nuts thing to do. Especially when they are indicating to go left.

But our 'infrastructure' (Advanced Stop Lines, and their feeder lanes) in many cases actually encourages cyclists up the left of a lorry. Personally, I won't do it myself unless I am absolutely sure that the lights won't change whilst I'm doing so. I imagine many cyclists are making the same judgement as me. It's safer to be in front of the traffic and get a quick getaway when the lights go green, instead of being squashed up against the kerb in the middle of a queue of traffic.

What you can't stop as a cyclist is someone overtaking you, then cutting in on the left, like in that incident I posted earlier on in the thread.
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I agree that the infrastructure often encourages cyclists to undertake. I've done it myself and nearly come a cropper, so now I'm much more cautious, to the extent of waiting behind a bus or HGV if I don't have enough time and enough space to get past on the outside rather than attempting to squeeze through on the inside.

And I totally agree that it is more or less impossible to prevent cases of attempting to overtake and then cutting in. I've had it happen to me as a cyclist, and I hope that the experience has made me a more considerate driver when I'm driving, making sure I only attempt to overtake if I know I have enough time.

That's clearly what happened in the video you posted and the driver in that case was totally in the wrong, but we really shouldn't speculate about this other incident on the basis of one still photo.
 
How many people are going to be needlessly killed or seriously injured because of the lack of will from the politicians, TfL and local authorities?

I believe we WILL get the infrastructure we need - it's just a case of when. We are winning the moral argument and the practical argument. It's just a matter of time before the political argument is won.

We need to take a little space and time from motorised vehicles on London's roads, and give it to pedestrians and cyclists. Motorists and politicians tend to be vehemently opposed to this and will say it can't be done. But it can - just look at the congestion charge (in place for about 10 years now) and the fact that almost every main road in London now has a bus lane (or two) on it. It can be done.
 
Pickman's model said:
i asked you to reference this earlier in the thread and there was something of a resounding silence from you. perhaps you could produce the evidence to which you refer now. taking it on trust for the time being, while the cyclist may be safer, it is possible that such actions may make other road users less safe - for example, cyclists going through a red light which allows pedestrians to cross. this seems to me to be a situation in which cyclists may, as i have said above, privilege their own safety above those of other vulnerable users.
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No you didn't. you asked someone else, who provided it for you in the form of a report from tfl.
 
Article from the Time (their cycle campaign is on the free bit of their website):

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3925308.ece

Chris Boardman saying ban HGVs from cities during rush hour.

He applauded Mr Johnson’s pledge to invest almost £1 billion in cycling over the next decade, but said the Mayor had not honoured his commitment to copy cities like Paris, where large vehicles are only allowed to deliver between 10pm and 7am and medium-sized vehicles between 10pm and 5pm.

In central Paris in 2011, there were no cycling fatalities at all.
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Pickman's model said:
a report from the standard. you said this report from the standard showed you were right and i was wrong. pls show me where in the tfl report it says you're right.
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Your whole take on this is wrong, and evidence of all kinds has been produced on this thread to show you that. You won't change your position despite the evidence stacked up to show you that you are wrong-headed in your focus on bad cycling behaviour. Depressingly, there will be others out there with the same prejudiced position as yours, who will agree with Boris Johnson about the problem.

I can see these deaths being used to push for compulsory helmets. But that won't stop the deaths, and after a while and a few dozen more deaths post-compulsory helmet introduction, real solutions that will work, such as banning lorries at certain hours and giving cyclists a head start at traffic lights will finally be considered. More people will need to die unnecessarily before that happens. :(
 
FFS:

De mortuis nil nisi bonum is (a) crap and (b) applies only to the individual, not the whole class of cyclists, or hang-gliers, or ballroom dancers.
 
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FFS, just saw a cyclist (no lights) going the wrong way down Shoreditch High St on the inside of a bus then go straight across the road into the right lane without looking behind. Luckily the oncoming bus driver was going quite slowly. (Sorry, maybe not the right thread but FFS, he was lucky he wasn't killed.)
 
There certainly are plenty of cyclists who already have a much higher threshold for risk ... young men kill them selves in huge numbers in cars - I've always seen a blurred boundary between that figure and that of male suicide.

But back to the subject.

Even knowing very few details these particular cyclists did not fit that description.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Your whole take on this is wrong, and evidence of all kinds has been produced on this thread to show you that. You won't change your position despite the evidence stacked up to show you that you are wrong-headed in your focus on bad cycling behaviour. Depressingly, there will be others out there with the same prejudiced position as yours, who will agree with Boris Johnson about the problem.

I can see these deaths being used to push for compulsory helmets. But that won't stop the deaths, and after a while and a few dozen more deaths post-compulsory helmet introduction, real solutions that will work, such as banning lorries at certain hours and giving cyclists a head start at traffic lights will finally be considered. More people will need to die unnecessarily before that happens. :(
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1) you say i agree with boris johnson: i don't;

2) you could just have said you hadn't read or seen the tfl report.

one solution which doesn't seem to have occurred to you is to reduce the length of time an hgv driver can work before taking a break, as it is possible tiredness is a contributing factor to some of these accidents.
 
Pickman's model said:
i asked you to reference this earlier in the thread and there was something of a resounding silence from you. perhaps you could produce the evidence to which you refer now. taking it on trust for the time being, while the cyclist may be safer, it is possible that such actions may make other road users less safe - for example, cyclists going through a red light which allows pedestrians to cross. this seems to me to be a situation in which cyclists may, as i have said above, privilege their own safety above those of other vulnerable users.
Click to expand...
As a pedestrian that has to regularly avoid cyclists going through a red light/green man at a very busy junction which was highlighted as one of the most dangerous in Glasgow, and as someone with a disability that can impede my walking, having to navigate vehicles/cyclists in the short time available is difficult enough.

I certainly don't need someone with their child on the back of the back trying to make it any harder, as has happened on 3 occasions recently. And he's not the only one - I've counted as many as three cyclists at once running the red light. It does not make it any safer for me as a pedestrian, quite the opposite.
 
What's difficult about telling truckers you're surrounded by invisible cyclist so be fucking careful.
 
RedDragon said:
What's difficult about telling truckers you're surrounded by invisible cyclist so be fucking careful.
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I have a lot of sympathy for the lorry drivers. If they have blind spots, they can be as careful as they like and still not be sure that the path is clear alongside them as they turn. Poor fuckers who kill cyclists, they may have been being careful, or they may have momentarily lost their care. That happens, and you can't legislate it out of existence. I feel sorry for them, too.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
I have a lot of sympathy for the lorry drivers. If they have blind spots, they can be as careful as they like and still not be sure that the path is clear alongside them as they turn. Poor fuckers who kill cyclists, they may have been being careful, or they may have momentarily lost their care. That happens, and you can't legislate it out of existence. I feel sorry for them, too.
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It'd be interesting to hear their side because sadly were unable to ask the cyclist.
 
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