15 minute Cities , the latest conspiracy.

[liquidindian]

A concept that says that suburban sprawl isn't great isn't really refuted by an example that shows suburban sprawl isn't great.

 

[platinumsage]

A concept that says that suburban sprawl isn't great isn't really refuted by an example that shows suburban sprawl isn't great.

Huh? Cambridge doesn't have suburban sprawl, it's highly constrained geographically by the green belt, resulting in a 15-minute city where all residents have amenities within 15 minutes.

 

[liquidindian]

Then I've no idea what you're talking about. I don't know Cambridge.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Ok let us some up, 15 minute cities are good for residents because they encourage residents to live within 15 minutes of everything they need.

They are bad because people need to drive into them to get to work

Is that where we are at?

Cos the idea is you shape traffic for the benefits of residents and encourage visitors to travel an alternative route (congestion charge is also about ensuring breathable air quality) - which is where this country trips up because our buses and trains are fucking shite and buses especially barely run outside of 7-9 and 4-6 on a weekday. You also encourage other areas to be 15 minutes altogether to encourage more sustainable settlements rather than vast arrays of dead suburbs.

 

[platinumsage]

It doesn't work for Cambridge because there are far more jobs and school places than residents. You can't just shift those elsewhere because they exist due to network effects, so you need to allow the city to expand outwards. This would jeopardise its 15-minuteness but would be a good thing for transport and liveability. So 15-minuteness isn't really a useful concept.

Sure, if you're engineering a new city from scratch it would be a useful guide, but that doesn't happen.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The thing with the giant gates trapping you in your suburb, it's just another example of something completely made up that's now believed by thousands of people.

It almost makes you want to actually have a talk with one of these people. Ask them where they got their information from. Ask them about a few of the reasons why what they're saying is obviously insane. Doubt it would be productive though. They'd just lose their shit and scream that you were one of 'them' whoever the fuck 'they' are.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

muh freedoms.
I have noticed one guy i follow on insta go down this rabbit hole. Which is strange because he lives in Bumfuckly, Yorkshire and seems to enjoy his grandkids and walking. People genuinely don't see how they are being manipulated by app algorhythms (sp?)
Londoners, does the M40 still look like this every morning? This is how I remember it.

 

[maomao]

muh freedoms.
I have noticed one guy i follow on insta go down this rabbit hole. Which is strange because he lives in Bumfuckly, Yorkshire and seems to enjoy his grandkids and walking. People genuinely don't see how they are being manipulated by app algorhythms (sp?)
Londoners, does the M40 still look like this every morning? This is how I remember it.

The cars have got even uglier since then. I can't see any SUVs.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

That day the plane overshot the runway at Northolt. We was on our bikes down the middle of the motorway as it was closed to cars.

 

[liquidindian]

So 15-minuteness isn't really a useful concept

A 15 minute city is not one that you can get to every part of in 15 minutes.

 

[platinumsage]

A 15 minute city is not one that you can get to every part of in 15 minutes.

I know.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

The cars have got even uglier since then. I can't see any SUVs.

they've all got only one person in.

 

[Leafster]

The thing with the giant gates trapping you in your suburb, it's just another example of something completely made up that's now believed by thousands of people.

It almost makes you want to actually have a talk with one of these people. Ask them where they got their information from. Ask them about a few of the reasons why what they're saying is obviously insane. Doubt it would be productive though. They'd just lose their shit and scream that you were one of 'them' whoever the fuck 'they' are.

It's a result of the conspiraloons turning

'20 minute liveable neighbourhoods are a good thing as it would mean most of the population in that area could live, work, shop and spend their recreation time within 20 minutes of home'

into

'20 minute liveable neighbourhoods are a necessary thing so the population in that area must live, work, shop and spend their recreation time within 20 minutes of home and if they don't barriers will have to be put up to stop them leaving'

Too many people are willing to accept the second version because of some non-existent plot by (insert your group of choice) who are hellbent on curtailing their freedoms.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

yes. It would be hilarious if it wasnt so patently dumb. They are angry at their own imagination. They are the raging woke eco loon in their head.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I find it hard to relate this great freedom driving apparently gives you with the traffic shuffling pain in the arse most urban driving actually is. I didn't feel particularly free the last time I had to take the car to work and it took me longer to get home than it normally does to run. Maybe that conflict between the top down cruising through the Arizona desert that's in their heads and the actual reality is part of the root of all that rage.

 

[lazythursday]

No, it's already a 15-minute city. Despite that it has traffic problems because the 15-minuteness only applies to people who live in it.

Well the problem is surely that those neighbourhoods, where those people live, are not 15 minute neighbourhoods. If they were it would reduce some of the pressure on the city centre.

 

[pinkmonkey]

Maybe they should let the bellends have what they want and we can relocate to 15 minute cities. They can sit in traffic jams, bleating about freedumb, if that’s what they want. This latest conspiracy has such Brexit energy hasn’t it?

 

[maomao]

Well the problem is surely that those neighbourhoods, where those people live, are not 15 minute neighbourhoods. If they were it would reduce some of the pressure on the city centre.

It's surrounded by small satellite towns and villages separated by green belt land and not all big enough to sustain a full range of facilities. I'm not against it at all but it's not quite that simple. My preferred option would be building (council housing) on green belt land to get part of the rural poor commuter belt in the city and then anyone who wants to live ten miles from town just cause its nicer can get on a fucking bus.

 

[lazythursday]

It's surrounded by small satellite towns and villages separated by green belt land and not all big enough to sustain a full range of facilities. I'm not against it at all but it's not quite that simple. My preferred option would be building (council housing) on green belt land to get part of the rural poor commuter belt in the city and then anyone who wants to live ten miles from town just cause its nicer can get on a fucking bus.

Clearly not everywhere can be a 15 minute neighbourhood but it's a good general principle for planning to reduce journeys. Lots of towns and cities have a dearth of services in particular suburbs and this is where the concept is most useful, in my opinion.

 

[platinumsage]

Well the problem is surely that those neighbourhoods, where those people live, are not 15 minute neighbourhoods. If they were it would reduce some of the pressure on the city centre.

They can't be 15-minute neighbourhoods because of the distribution of jobs. You can't for example chop up the massive city hospital into 30 pieces and distribute it amongst 30 outlying towns and villages. Instead you need to enable people to live within 15 minutes of the massive hospital. This can't be done because of planning constraints that restrict growth of the city.

 

[maomao]

Clearly not everywhere can be a 15 minute neighbourhood but it's a good general principle for planning to reduce journeys. Lots of towns and cities have a dearth of services in particular suburbs and this is where the concept is most useful, in my opinion.

Definitely and I think Cambridge should just get on with it. My only objection to congestion charges is that they let some people in. Just ban the lot.

 

[Raheem]

It doesn't work for Cambridge because there are far more jobs and school places than residents.

Cambridge has far more school places than residents?

 

[platinumsage]

Cambridge has far more school places than residents?

Than required by residents I mean. Lots of kids commute to Cambridge for school and college, many by train from other towns such as Wisbech and Ely, many by car to city-centre private schools from South Cambridgeshire.

 

[lazythursday]

They can't be 15-minute neighbourhoods because of the distribution of jobs. You can't for example chop up the massive city hospital into 30 pieces and distribute it amongst 30 outlying towns and villages. Instead you need to enable people to live within 15 minutes of the massive hospital. This can't be done because of planning constraints that restrict growth of the city.

I think you're misunderstanding what this concept is all about. It's not about ensuring that absolutely everyone lives, shops, recreates, works within 15 minutes. It's about maximising what's possible to reduce journeys.

 

[platinumsage]

I think you're misunderstanding what this concept is all about. It's not about ensuring that absolutely everyone lives, shops, recreates, works within 15 minutes. It's about maximising what's possible to reduce journeys.

My point is that everyone living in the city currently is 15 minutes by bike from all those things. It is already a 15-minute city, but perhaps by virtue of that there are massive congestion and liveability (house price) problems.

 

[maomao]

I think there's a good case for allowing small and medium size cities to get bigger in the interests of reducing journeys. There are tonnes of people living outside the cities they work in because they've been priced out.

 

[danny la rouge]

My point is that everyone living in the city currently is 15 minutes by bike from all those things. It is already a 15-minute city, but perhaps by virtue of that there are massive congestion and liveability (house price) problems.

I don’t know if you have a particular city in mind, but in the city I live in the distribution of amenities is not even. There are plenty of neighbourhoods that are deserts as far as primary health, recreation and shopping are concerned, never mind jobs. If you compare Hillhead with Drumchapel you’ll see what I mean. Yes, Hillhead is pretty much already a 15 minute (or in Glasgow’s slightly less ambition jargon, a 20 minute) neighbourhood. Drumchapel is not.

 

[lazythursday]

I think there's a good case for allowing small and medium size cities to get bigger in the interests of reducing journeys. There are tonnes of people living outside the cities they work in because they've been priced out.

I think you're right, though only if there are no options for densification, and that the new neighbourhoods aren't more suburban sprawl lacking amenities.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think you're right, though only if there are no options for densification, and that the new neighbourhoods aren't more suburban sprawl lacking amenities.

yeh let's build more homes on the paltry green spaces on estates

 

[Raheem]

Than required by residents I mean. Lots of kids commute to Cambridge for school and college, many by train from other towns such as Wisbech and Ely, many by car to city-centre private schools from South Cambridgeshire.

OK, but that sounds less like being a "15-minute city" is causing problems, and more like its aspiration to be one is hampered by having schools poorly distributed.