12 Hour Shifts. Can they be compulsory?

[Kevbad the Bad]

Apologies if this has been asked elsewhere. My son has worked as a porter in the NHS for some years, with Serco to start off but then transferring to the NHS. All that time he and his colleagues have worked an 8 hour day, with varying start times. Now it looks like they may be moved to a 12 hour day, 4 days on, 4 days off. Can employees be made to go along with this? Does it all depend on the fine print of their contract, or is there any general legal way to object to this?

 

[Plumdaff]

If it's been custom and practice to work a certain way there needs to be a consultation, with union involvement, before a change can be made. Is he in a union? If he's NHS there should be one around.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

If it's been custom and practice to work a certain way there needs to be a consultation, with union involvement, before a change can be made. Is he in a union? If he's NHS there should be one around.

Yes he's been in the GMB since he started. I realise there may have to be a consultation but would like to know what the legal situation, consultation or not. Can it be enforced?

 

[MickiQ]

It depends on what his contract says and the outcome of any consultation but at the end of the day almost certainly yes they can.

 

[maomao]

Good luck fighting it but four on four off shifts are brilliant.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Good luck fighting it but four on four off shifts are brilliant.

Not so good if you rely on public transport, an hour each way and long potential waits. A 12 hour day can end up looking like a 15 hour day or more. Totally knackering. That gets even worse with weekend or bank holiday working.

 

[yield]

I loved twelve hour shifts. Four days off more than made up for it.

 

[maomao]

Not so good if you rely on public transport, an hour each way and long potential waits. A 12 hour day can end up looking like a 15 hour day or more. Totally knackering. That gets even worse with weekend or bank holiday working.

It's definitely tough. I used to have to get a 4.45 am bus on Sundays. But the four days more than make up for it and you get 20 days off so can take 5 12-day holidays a year.

 

[kalidarkone]

4 days together of 12 hour shifts is fucking brutal.
I think Kevbad the Bad he needs to be speaking to his manager and union rep.
12 hour shifts don't work for everyone and what they actually need to be considering is flexible working.
I prefer 12 .5 hour shifts because I like to get as much done while I'm there and not have to get up at 5am most of the week....

 

[A380]

12hrs x 4 on 4 off was my favourite shift pattern. Did it twice. Once for about 18 months once for about six months.

 

[maomao]

I did it for fourteen years. Working 5 days a week seems very cruel now.

 

[kalidarkone]

I did it for fourteen years. Working 5 days a week seems very cruel now.

Yeh I'd never go back.
I'm cutting my hours to 34 hrs when I go back meaning that I'll only ever have to do 3 x 12.5 hour shifts a week. I've also asked not to do nights ever again.....

 

[Puddy_Tat]

(subject to the usual disclaimers - I'm not a lawyer and it's a while since I've been a union rep)

Ultimately, employers can try and change contract terms, in theory employees can decline to accept the change, but employers can get difficult (e.g. making pay rises / promotion dependent on accepting new terms) and can (legally) go as far as 'fire and rehire' if employees don't agree to it.

You mention a change of legal employer - is this a recent thing, or some time ago? If you get outsourced / re-tendered / taken in house, you are legally entitled to transfer with your existing pay / terms and conditions and length of continuous service (this is known as TUPE regulations - can go in to more detail if you want) - there isn't a time limit after the transfer that this expires (there is an urban myth that it lasts a fixed amount of time then expires, but that's cobblers.)

Some employers will try and encourage people to sign up to their T+C, in some cases they will offer a lump sum to do this.

It's not uncommon for a workplace to have different people on different T+C, although this can give employers an opportunity to play workers off against each other.

Well established 'custom and practice' can become part of terms and conditions of employment.

Is there union representation here? Getting union involved is likely to be the best course of action.

 

[WouldBe]

4 days together of 12 hour shifts is fucking brutal.

I used to do a 3-2-2-3 12 hour shift pattern and 3 days on was bad enough nevermind 4.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

and you get 20 days off so can take 5 12-day holidays a year.

what's the rules about 20 days holiday when you work a condensed week?

is it still 20 working days off, or would they pro-rata it and say it's 4 weeks holiday?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

4 days together of 12 hour shifts is fucking brutal.
I think Kevbad the Bad he needs to be speaking to his manager and union rep.
12 hour shifts don't work for everyone and what they actually need to be considering is flexible working.
I prefer 12 .5 hour shifts because I like to get as much done while I'm there and not have to get up at 5am most of the week....

He's going to speak to the union rep tomorrow. There's several on his shift who have learning difficulties of one sort or another, and they may just be able to use that as leverage. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that the whole NHS is going this way. Once enough departments have been converted to 12 hour shifts it becomes more difficult for others to resist. I realise some people may like it, but others will have greater problems with childcare or attending regular social activities. Personally I would hate it. I once spent 3 weeks working 12 hour shifts 7 days a week. I needed the money at the time, but I was like an extra in a third rate zombie movie.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I loved twelve hour shifts. Four days off more than made up for it.

It really didn't make up for the three, 12 hour night shifts, even with 5-6 days off.

Dull as fuck but fuck me a toll on mental and physical health.

 

[geminisnake]

Good luck, 12 hr shifts are a total no go for folk with energy level issues. I certainly couldn't do a 12 hr shift

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

(subject to the usual disclaimers - I'm not a lawyer and it's a while since I've been a union rep)

Ultimately, employers can try and change contract terms, in theory employees can decline to accept the change, but employers can get difficult (e.g. making pay rises / promotion dependent on accepting new terms) and can (legally) go as far as 'fire and rehire' if employees don't agree to it.

You mention a change of legal employer - is this a recent thing, or some time ago? If you get outsourced / re-tendered / taken in house, you are legally entitled to transfer with your existing pay / terms and conditions and length of continuous service (this is known as TUPE regulations - can go in to more detail if you want) - there isn't a time limit after the transfer that this expires (there is an urban myth that it lasts a fixed amount of time then expires, but that's cobblers.)

Some employers will try and encourage people to sign up to their T+C, in some cases they will offer a lump sum to do this.

It's not uncommon for a workplace to have different people on different T+C, although this can give employers an opportunity to play workers off against each other.

Well established 'custom and practice' can become part of terms and conditions of employment.

Is there union representation here? Getting union involved is likely to be the best course of action.

He switche'd from serco to nhs just over a year ago. Since then his shift pattern was changed from 12am to 8pm, to 8am to 4pm, at his request as it reflected the reality of the hours he was actually working. Apart from that nothing has changed, or so I believe, but I'll try and get a look at his contract tomorrow.

 

[DaveCinzano]

It's not for everyone, but I certainly enjoyed working my irregular four week cycle of 12 hour shifts - not least because due to permanent swaps one of every four weeks was completely clear. It also meant I got all six of my night shifts over in a bit over a week (block of two & block of 4) which felt better on the body clock. With enhancements it took a Band 2 job to nearly Band 5 (9-5 hours) in wages.

But if he's taken a job based on one set of conditions, and management are saying they are going to change them, that's a shitter. My old management tried that in various ways, but my team fended them off for years by sticking together, questioning everything, and just refusing to accept any changes. I appreciate that the specifics of our situation were very specific though. The security team, on the other hand, were always being dicked around by the bosses

 

[A380]

what's the rules about 20 days holiday when you work a condensed week?

is it still 20 working days off, or would they pro-rata it and say it's 4 weeks holiday?

For anything outside a normal 37/40 hour week almost all employers change it to an hour per year entitlement. So if you had five weeks and 'normal' hours were a 7.5 hour day they would change that to 7.5 x 25 so 187.5 Hours or 15.6 days. The shift pattern still means you have more days off in a year. Foe example you could use your leave to have four blocks of 12 days off a year.

 

[maomao]

what's the rules about 20 days holiday when you work a condensed week?

is it still 20 working days off, or would they pro-rata it and say it's 4 weeks holiday?

4 on 4 off is twenty days holiday. Normal full time hours is 28. Pro rata (av 3.5 days a week so 28 / 5 * 3.5 = 20). So you don't get bank holidays off (or rather you get half of them off anyway).

 

[andysays]

Yes he's been in the GMB since he started. I realise there may have to be a consultation but would like to know what the legal situation, consultation or not. Can it be enforced?

If there's a system of collective bargaining in place then if the union agree to a change in terms and conditions it effectively becomes compulsory for everyone to follow the new T&Cs.

You said in your first post it "looks like" they may be moved to 12 hour shifts. What has actually happened? Is it an announcement from management that this will happen from a certain date, or the beginning of a consultation process, or something else?

If there is a negotiation around changing shift patterns, the best thing to argue for might be some sort of flexibility so that those who want to work (fewer) 12 hour shifts can do so, and those who want to stick with existing 8 hour shifts can do that.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

If there's a system of collective bargaining in place then if the union agree to a change in terms and conditions it effectively becomes compulsory for everyone to follow the new T&Cs.

You said in your first post it "looks like" they may be moved to 12 hour shifts. What has actually happened? Is it an announcement from management that this will happen from a certain date, or the beginning of a consultation process, or something else?

If there is a negotiation around changing shift patterns, the best thing to argue for might be some sort of flexibility so that those who want to work (fewer) 12 hour shifts can do so, and those who want to stick with existing 8 hour shifts can do that.

I'm not sure if this is the start of an official consultation or not yet. There's also more than one union potentially involved, plus non-union workers. Does that make a difference?

 

[kalidarkone]

He's going to speak to the union rep tomorrow. There's several on his shift who have learning difficulties of one sort or another, and they may just be able to use that as leverage. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that the whole NHS is going this way. Once enough departments have been converted to 12 hour shifts it becomes more difficult for others to resist. I realise some people may like it, but others will have greater problems with childcare or attending regular social activities. Personally I would hate it. I once spent 3 weeks working 12 hour shifts 7 days a week. I needed the money at the time, but I was like an extra in a third rate zombie movie.

Nah....its true a lot of shifts are now 12.5 or whatever....but baring in mind there are are hell of a lot of people working in the NHS with dependents that they need to work round staff preference. Plus the majority are women and more likely to have out of work caring responsibilities.

In my NHS hospital department there are about 5 different shift times. This accommodates most peoples personal circumstances, parents, single parents, grandparents, carers, staff with chronic health issues etc

Could they possibly alienate staff any more than they have done? Probably....
But as mentioned needs to have gone out to consultation and he needs to be asking his manager why this has not happened and if it has then why is this the first he is hearing of it?

 

[MickiQ]

I'm not sure if this is the start of an official consultation or not yet. There's also more than one union potentially involved, plus non-union workers. Does that make a difference?

The management will strike an agreement with the unions and the non-union workers will basically like it or lump it.

 

[kalidarkone]

Your boy ought to join GMB if he hasn't already.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Your boy ought to join GMB if he hasn't already.

He joined on day one.

 

[kalidarkone]

He joined on day one.

Then he needs to talk to the rep ASAP.

 

[StoneRoad]

Not sure that I could do 12 hour shifts these days, especially with travelling on top of that.

In the middle of the summer of1990, I did several sets of nine x minimum 13 hours shifts (the longest was 15 hours) without a day off. Normally, I would then swop turns to get three days off together. On the second trip round that circuit I ended up being called in on both of the last two, resulting in 7 and 9 hours "on duty" on what were supposed to be rest days.
After that, I put my foot down, and got my booked rest days by unplugging the damm phone. Doing that resulted in a short row with a very senior idiot in upper management. I quoted rule book at them, then walked off to do a relief turn - driving the Locomotion replica.