WTC attacks - the alternative thread
- Thread starter fela fan
- Start date
Editor
Patience shall be your reward. I'm busy at work at the moment, but when I get the chance I will indeed spell out IN VERY SIMPLE TERMS and direct you towards the evidence (as outlined in Ahmed's book, but to be found elsewhere) that proves the USG were involved. Although for someone who is supposedly so familiar with 9/11 I find it impossible to believe you are not already aware of it
The pompous and arrogant one who will indeed expose your bluster
Ian
Patience shall be your reward. I'm busy at work at the moment, but when I get the chance I will indeed spell out IN VERY SIMPLE TERMS and direct you towards the evidence (as outlined in Ahmed's book, but to be found elsewhere) that proves the USG were involved. Although for someone who is supposedly so familiar with 9/11 I find it impossible to believe you are not already aware of it
The pompous and arrogant one who will indeed expose your bluster
Ian
It's called real life. I don't know how many government staff you've met but I've met a few, and they are just like you and I, same strengths, same weaknesses.fela fan said:
Sparticus - Could you get any further up your own ass? Single-minded quester for the truth. Looking forward to seeing your "evidence".
editor said:
Why don't you stop predenting you know everything and admit that you didn't have the nous to conduct a google search in Spanish? If you had you would have got 72,000 returns like I did. Instead you come along whining that you can find "ne'er a trace" of either the institution or the professor.
As for the Professors qualifications these are mentioned in the Ombudsmans piece I also provided and which you obviously haven't read. I'm not a Spanish speaker, but in order to get a comprehensive list of the professors qualifications and achievements a search needs to be conducted in Spanish.
But none of this matters one iota in your case, because, as has been shown in the recent past in the case of professor Dewdney, when a list of qualification and published peer revued papers was presented confirming his high reputation you simply ignored them choosing to label him a "charlatan" instead because he refuses to break an agreement he has with eye witnesses to keep their names out of the papers.
Presumably, if the boot was on the other foot, you would have no such hesitation in breaking a similar confidence yourself.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
bigfish said:
He can't be that bright and I fear his reputation is going down the pan. His website includes a page by the 'aeronautical engineer' Longspaugh, who claims that the damage to the pentagon is insufficient to have been caused by a 757 as it should have damaged more than just the front wall.
Dewdney has now added photos and an analysis of the hole in the rear of C ring which contradicts the Longspaugh data
Here you are Editor and Slaar
Let’s try and avoid diversions into my arrogance and pomposity, the nature of your editorial/moderation of the site, etc and focus on the evidence and search for the truth surrounding 9/11.
As I have said I reckon I can prove that the US Government knew and that they let 9/11 happen on purpose (my ‘baffling’ LIHOP). This is not speculation and it is pretty difficult to fudge. As the opening paragraph of chapter 4 states, the official version of 9/11 requires the following statements to be true
“We’ve been focusing on this perpetrator Osama bin Laden for 3 years, and yet we didn’t see this one coming,” said Vincent Cannistraro, former chief of CIA counter-terrorism operations. A U.S. Air Force General described the attack as “something we had never seen before, something we had never even thought of.” FBI Director Robert Mueller further declared that “there were no warning signs that I’m aware of.” Senior FBI officials insisted that in terms of intelligence warnings received prior to 11th September: “The notion of flying a plane into a building or using it as a bomb never came up.”[1] According to this official version of events, no one in the Bush administration had the slightest idea of the identities of those who orchestrated the 11th September attacks, the nature of their plans, or their targets.
The evidence in chapter 4, which incidentally is also to be found in many other sources including many websites you would no doubt dismiss as bonkers conspiracy sites, plainly contradicts these statements and proves my first fact: THEY KNEW. This evidence would be well known to anyone who has done even the most preliminary investigation of 9/11. In the first instance let us stick to whether THEY KNEW and not if they LIHOP. Once it is shown that they did know we can then explore the evidence that they LIHOP
This is essential to establish that they knew before moving onto the next chapter or fact that I say is supported by the evidence (they LIHOP). If they knew (and they provably knew a lot) it is harder and harder to accept ‘the incompetence or cock-up theory’ to explain the air defense failures of 9/11 http://www.septembereleventh.org/airdefense.php.
So if they knew and no amount of systematic or personal incompetence can explain the air defense failures in the light of this prior knowledge, that leaves only one explanation. They let it happen on purpose or even made it happen on purpose. Either way it is a conspiracy (a hidden criminal act) plain and simple. We can then get to the really important part: the implications of the 9/11 conspiracy on U75 and the wider movement for global transformation. If other people then wish to go on and explore HOW they LIHOP or MIHOP, so be it. I just want to prove it was a conspiracy to start with.
So here is the link to chapter 4 of Nafeez Ahmed’s A War on Freedom, http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq36.html. As you will see there is no way that you can dismiss the evidence as either being non existent or from ‘cranky conspiracy’ sources and websites. If you have evidence that supports the statements of Vincent Cannistraro and Robert Mueller and challenges the evidence presented by Ahmed, let’s see it. If not, I look forward to acceptance of these 2 facts and an apology to all the conspiracy theorists you consistently mock and abuse.
Easy now
Ian
Let’s try and avoid diversions into my arrogance and pomposity, the nature of your editorial/moderation of the site, etc and focus on the evidence and search for the truth surrounding 9/11.
As I have said I reckon I can prove that the US Government knew and that they let 9/11 happen on purpose (my ‘baffling’ LIHOP). This is not speculation and it is pretty difficult to fudge. As the opening paragraph of chapter 4 states, the official version of 9/11 requires the following statements to be true
“We’ve been focusing on this perpetrator Osama bin Laden for 3 years, and yet we didn’t see this one coming,” said Vincent Cannistraro, former chief of CIA counter-terrorism operations. A U.S. Air Force General described the attack as “something we had never seen before, something we had never even thought of.” FBI Director Robert Mueller further declared that “there were no warning signs that I’m aware of.” Senior FBI officials insisted that in terms of intelligence warnings received prior to 11th September: “The notion of flying a plane into a building or using it as a bomb never came up.”[1] According to this official version of events, no one in the Bush administration had the slightest idea of the identities of those who orchestrated the 11th September attacks, the nature of their plans, or their targets.
The evidence in chapter 4, which incidentally is also to be found in many other sources including many websites you would no doubt dismiss as bonkers conspiracy sites, plainly contradicts these statements and proves my first fact: THEY KNEW. This evidence would be well known to anyone who has done even the most preliminary investigation of 9/11. In the first instance let us stick to whether THEY KNEW and not if they LIHOP. Once it is shown that they did know we can then explore the evidence that they LIHOP
This is essential to establish that they knew before moving onto the next chapter or fact that I say is supported by the evidence (they LIHOP). If they knew (and they provably knew a lot) it is harder and harder to accept ‘the incompetence or cock-up theory’ to explain the air defense failures of 9/11 http://www.septembereleventh.org/airdefense.php.
So if they knew and no amount of systematic or personal incompetence can explain the air defense failures in the light of this prior knowledge, that leaves only one explanation. They let it happen on purpose or even made it happen on purpose. Either way it is a conspiracy (a hidden criminal act) plain and simple. We can then get to the really important part: the implications of the 9/11 conspiracy on U75 and the wider movement for global transformation. If other people then wish to go on and explore HOW they LIHOP or MIHOP, so be it. I just want to prove it was a conspiracy to start with.
So here is the link to chapter 4 of Nafeez Ahmed’s A War on Freedom, http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq36.html. As you will see there is no way that you can dismiss the evidence as either being non existent or from ‘cranky conspiracy’ sources and websites. If you have evidence that supports the statements of Vincent Cannistraro and Robert Mueller and challenges the evidence presented by Ahmed, let’s see it. If not, I look forward to acceptance of these 2 facts and an apology to all the conspiracy theorists you consistently mock and abuse.
Easy now
Ian
editor
hiraethified
I don't recall describing Dewdney as a 'charlatan' although I find his claim extremely dubious.bigfish said:
Do you really think it's probable that the only two people in the whole of Long Island who just happened to notice two large Manhattan-headed, passenger aircraft rumbling noisily over the rush hour traffic in an illegal, dangerous, "amazingly low and slow" formation just happened to get in touch with Dewdney and then just happen to insist on remaining anonymous with a testimony that just happened to fit his conspiracy theory perfectly?
So exactly why do you believe his unsupported, unsubstantiated, evidence untroubled, witness-free claims, bigfish?
One of the interesting things about 911, so far as i can see, is the silence in the US and UK media over the topic. As can be seen from this thread, and others like it, interest in the topic is high. If only the interest level of the editor of urban could be replicated by the editors of the mainstream press...
But they just simply leave it alone. All the questions we have been asking, all the holes we can see in the official version, are just not being dealt with by the journos.
What a disgraceful media.
Why don't they ask the government how they can find a hijacker's passport, undamaged, yet cannot find the black box?
Why don't they ask the USG how they could be guilty of such gross and negligent incompetence in stopping the attacks?
Why aren't they asking the questions?
But they just simply leave it alone. All the questions we have been asking, all the holes we can see in the official version, are just not being dealt with by the journos.
What a disgraceful media.
Why don't they ask the government how they can find a hijacker's passport, undamaged, yet cannot find the black box?
Why don't they ask the USG how they could be guilty of such gross and negligent incompetence in stopping the attacks?
Why aren't they asking the questions?
slaar said:
No slaar, they are not just like me, or even you i'd hazard a guess. You do them way too big a favour by saying that.
Weaknesses eh?? Sure, i agree humans have a weakness, and they make mistakes.
But that's not what i'm talking about. What we are being led to believe is that incompetence on a massive scale, about 8.0 on the richter, took place. For you can be sure, the only reason we have to believe the USG theory is that they were staggeringly incompetent. Not any old human mistake mate, a whole series of them that just compounded each other.
It is just too much to accept. The USG version is the true conspiracy. Which includes magical flying passports and last minute revision on how-to-fly-a-jet by one of the hijackers, plus a bit of last minute koran reading.
Highly intelligent folk who can fly planes and fool the best and biggest intelligence in the world, carry out the most amazing plan ever seen, and yet they need to do some last minute revision, and, they're prepared to kill themselves.
It's truly amazing. You couldn't get away with it in a novel.
fela fan said:
Yessirree. It's because it's TOO HOT TO HANDLE! That's why. Because when you peel back people's eyeballs and force them to look at the blinding truth they can't hack it. The journos have no cojones. They tremble before the sheer enormity of the horrendous truth. That's what is going on. And everyone knows it who's looking carefully.
http://www.amics21.com/911/flight175
How widespread is this on the net? How many people are discussing this appalling scam by the scum? Sorry to use rude words but I feel we must start using the right words for things. We have some interesting arithmetic on the kitchen table. We spent an absorbing evening adding up how many 100th monkeys there must be by now...
So the explosion of human awareness of this one tragic despicable falsehood is starting.
A response to the crazies. We know what they did.
Bonkers logic
Do you expect all people who have seen this to have called Dewdney? Are there only two people? How do you know this?
they did contact him, is this suspicious in some way?
As far as I know Prof Dewdney has always prefaced his analysis with the idea of putting forward a hypothesis to be examined and proved right or wrong -as a tool. He talks of possible scenarios but never "claims" anything.
It isn't a question of belief, it's a question of reading what he has to say and then taking on board whatever you see fit. Why the tirade?
editor said:
Do you expect all people who have seen this to have called Dewdney? Are there only two people? How do you know this?
editor said:
they did contact him, is this suspicious in some way?
editor said:
As far as I know Prof Dewdney has always prefaced his analysis with the idea of putting forward a hypothesis to be examined and proved right or wrong -as a tool. He talks of possible scenarios but never "claims" anything.
editor said:
It isn't a question of belief, it's a question of reading what he has to say and then taking on board whatever you see fit. Why the tirade?
editor
hiraethified
I would have thought that sight of two large passenger aircraft flying over a population the size of Greater Manchester in the rush hour would have attracted lots of attention.RosaDeLuxe said:
After all, these aircraft were supposedly flying "amazingly slow" and "amazingly low" in an illegal and highly dangerous formation. And they were headed for Manhattan!
You'd think that the local news media, radio stations, local papers, the internet and probably even national TV would be buzzing with such an incredible story - after all, I don't think the amazing sight of two passenger aircraft flying so closely together that one appeared to be "towing" the other has ever seen before.
I've certainly never seen such a sight. Have you?
Yet the only source that Dewdney can dredge up out of Long Island's 1,500,000 population to back up his highly improbable tale are these two people who conveniently insist on staying anonymous. And he doesn't explain how or why they got in touch with him either. How mighty convenient again.
But feel free to prove me wrong and offer a rational explanation why the rest of Long Island missed this 'amazing' sight.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
RosaDeLuxe said:
Yes because if the 2 planes were flying at the same height and only 50ft apart (as Dewdney's witnesses claim) the second aircrafts engines would have 'flamed out' due to the jet wash from the first aircraft.
The reason why no one else saw this happen is cos it didn't it's impossible
fela, how the USG 'let'911 happen is exactly what has been in the press over the past few months. Don't you read/watch it? There's a commission you know.
And what the hell does a found passport prove or not prove? Whether it was fouund or not has no bearing on the black box at all.
And what the hell does a found passport prove or not prove? Whether it was fouund or not has no bearing on the black box at all.
Jo/Joe said:
Jo, i'm in thailand. I don't have a telly, and there's no news of this in the papers here. I look at the guardian and independent from time to time on the net, but don't see any news of it. I am aware the commission's going on and was interested in that pdb that showed the US knew that such an attack was being planned.
If a black box cannot survive the impact of the crash into the WTC, how can a passport? Just one of them. And conveniently one of the hijacker's. And competely unsinged. What a piece of luck!!
Dirty Martini
gets what he cant want
Re. the passport. Can anyone provide a link to a reliable source that mentions this find? Has this passport been produced for all to see? All I remember was that this was a news story that surfaced and was then forgotten -- one of many in the days after the attack.
I'm inclined to dismiss it as another of the rumours that always flies around at such times.
I'm inclined to dismiss it as another of the rumours that always flies around at such times.
I'm sure I've said this before but, the flight recorder will be a bolted on mechanism that will go where the plane goes. If that's into a building which subsequently collapses, we might expect it to be destroyed. A passport is a little booklet and carried loose onto the plane. Usually in a coat pocket or in a bag. It's not inconceivable that, on impact, something light and unfixed such as a small booklet or a bag or an item of clothing containing it could fall away from the crash. Perhaps even blown away by the force of the explosion. Not inconceivable at all.fela fan said:
Dirty Martini said:
Here you are DM:
Flight 11/Flight 175 Hijacker Passport Found
We have just mentioned the distinct possibility that the masterminds of Operation 911 will manufacture evidence. Well, here is a CNN story for your consideration:
In New York, several blocks from the ruins of the World Trade Center, a passport authorities said belonged to one of the hijackers was discovered a few days ago, according to city Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik. That has prompted the FBI and police to widen the search area beyond the immediate crash site. ("Leaders urge 'normal' Monday after week of terror, September 16, 2001. Posted 7:07 p.m. EDT, 23:07 GMT.)
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/gen.america.under.attack/
We are asked to believe that one of the hijackers brought his passport with him on a domestic fight, even though he knew he would not need it then, or ever again; that upon impact the passport flew from the hijacker's pocket (or was he holding it in his hands?), that the passport flew out of the aircraft, that it flew out of the burning tower, and that it was carried by the air currents and landed safely, where it could be discovered, several blocks away ...
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/valentine.htm
white rabbit said:
So far as i'm aware, no plane crash has ever failed to produce the black box.
Are passports required on domestic flights in the US?
And you're telling me a passport could survive the ball of flames we all saw on the telly? And you folk go on about conspiracy theories. Fucking hell.
editor said:
Are you a deep sea diver? Coz you certainly dredge up some fantastic stuff.
Which newspaper do i never read? Coz that's the first i know of it.
And what have i 'boldly' announced what is being shown on tv news?
Stick to facts please, and quit making things up about me.
Jo/Joe said:
I don't understand what you're telling me jo.
I get a lot of news from reading urban and the links people put up. Plus i access the bbc website daily. I've already said i quite often look at two british dailies on the web.
The passport was produced by the USG as evidence that the plane was flown by an Al Q sort. And if you're telling me you think it could have survived that crash...
editor
hiraethified
As far as I'm aware, no plane has ever crashed into one of the world's tallest buildings at high speed in a blaze of exploding fuel, had millions of tons of heavy building materials crash on top of it and then been compressed underneath a burning furnace for weeks on end.fela fan said:
"Who are you going to believe, me or your own two eyes?" Marx (Groucho)
There are no black boxes because the 3 aircraft striking the WTC and Pentagon were switched.
If you look closely, just a split second before the plane impacts the building, it's possible to see the flash of a whitish plumes of exhaust smoke indicating that missiles are being fired into the building. The image is poor quality, but is available on DVD where the detail can be seen more clearly. You should be able to manipulate the segment one frame at a time backwards and forwards to find the moments of the missile flashes, quickly followed by the plane crashing into the building.
See how many missiles you can count...
http://webfairy.911review.org/video/firsthit.detail.mov
Now take a look at this footage taken of the second plane attacking the south tower. Scroll about a third of the way down until you come to the image loop running on the left. Watch the image carefully a few times. You should be able to just make out a something being launched from near the front underside of the plane a fraction of a second before the plane impacts the building, just like in the first attack.
http://www.letsroll911.org/
This next image shows the same plane, but taken from a different angle. It shows the exhaust gasses being released most clearly, again, just a fraction of a second before the plane impacts the tower.
http://www.thewebfairy.com/911/letsroll911/Web/missileignitionandlaunch.swf
Finally, here's an analysis of photographic images taken of the underside of the second aircraft revealing the presence of "cylindrical objects".
http://www.amics21.com/911/report.html
There are no black boxes because the 3 aircraft striking the WTC and Pentagon were switched.
If you look closely, just a split second before the plane impacts the building, it's possible to see the flash of a whitish plumes of exhaust smoke indicating that missiles are being fired into the building. The image is poor quality, but is available on DVD where the detail can be seen more clearly. You should be able to manipulate the segment one frame at a time backwards and forwards to find the moments of the missile flashes, quickly followed by the plane crashing into the building.
See how many missiles you can count...
http://webfairy.911review.org/video/firsthit.detail.mov
Now take a look at this footage taken of the second plane attacking the south tower. Scroll about a third of the way down until you come to the image loop running on the left. Watch the image carefully a few times. You should be able to just make out a something being launched from near the front underside of the plane a fraction of a second before the plane impacts the building, just like in the first attack.
http://www.letsroll911.org/
This next image shows the same plane, but taken from a different angle. It shows the exhaust gasses being released most clearly, again, just a fraction of a second before the plane impacts the tower.
http://www.thewebfairy.com/911/letsroll911/Web/missileignitionandlaunch.swf
Finally, here's an analysis of photographic images taken of the underside of the second aircraft revealing the presence of "cylindrical objects".
http://www.amics21.com/911/report.html
Walter Mitty
Seasoned lizard hunter
Theres a 3rd explanation, the orginal planes could have been fitting with rocket launchers and no black boxes.
There was an explosion. So the passport or whatever it was contained in could have been blown clear. I say could have, because I don't know what happened, any more than you do. But because it isn't impossible, it's not the killer clue you think it is.fela fan said:
Now, disappearing and impersonated passengers and bolted on missile launchers. That takes a bit more explaining. Although we don't even need to look for these wonderfully elaborate explanations as 19 guys with knives seems to be holding up quite well. That's the simplest theory. First show how that is impossible. Not unlikely, impossible. Then start crafting your wonderful confections.
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