Windrush Square, Brixton - news and discussion
- Thread starter teuchter
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lang rabbie
Je ne regrette les gazebos
Without wanting to sound like the Taxpayer's Alliance - I think anyone involved with the urban design professions has to ask why are such projects so expensive in absolute terms, and not just relative to other publicly procured projects.
From memory it requires about 60 bricks per square metre and top quality pavers can be got for under £400 for a pallet of 400, so the raw materials amounted to less than 10% of overall costs per square metre.
So where exactly was the value added (or the money wasted on fruitless activities/poorly co-ordinated tasks) ? I know there was some more fundamental work to relay drains and create storm chambers etc [although it is not clear whether those were charged to the cost of the square or the street works], but otherwise this was not a major piece of civil engineering.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
It's a valid question to ask ... although if you are talking about "expensive" then it has to be in relation to something else.
It's a little simplistic to talk about raw materials just in terms of the cost of stone pavers though ... there are all the specially shaped ones to form steps and so forth, granite kerb edges which need to be made to the correct radius before they arrive on site, and so on. It's not like you just order 4000 square metres of paving slabs. Then there's all the other stuff - lighting and all the wiring for it, the partly matured trees, and other street furniture.
And then there are labour costs and machinery and all the overheads a contractor has to pay to keep a site running.
It would be interesting to see how it breaks down, like Crispy says. Someone else can do the FOI for that, though.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Maybe you could see if you could get something done about it beyond complaining on here.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
I wasn't really criticising it (the redesign) on the basis of not being a 'proper' square, I was saying that any redesign would have been screwed by the A23. There's something about having a thundering motorway next to a space that pretty much destroys it. Editor posted some photos comparing Windrush with the South Bank a while back on this thread and although you can argue it's an unfair comparison in some ways it did make me wonder why that bit of the southbank is so nice compared to WS - and one key reason for me is that it's on the river, not on an urban motorway.
FWIW - and some on here may not be surprised to hear this - I'd close the road and happily.
Bring back the Effra!
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
The A23 isn't a motorway, thundering or otherwise. It's a 2.5-lane road with a 30mph limit. Not a motorway. But then you are a crazy person when it comes to cars.
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
It's a sewer. Best left underground.
editor
hiraethified
With my critical article on Windrush Square being #1 in Google for "Windrush Square fountain" and the threads here coming in #2 and #3, I'm sure if anyone gives a fuck at the council they would have already read my comments.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I would have thought that a brief email to a local councillor or MP would have much more chance of actually resulting in some action than relying on someone at the council idly googling "Windrush Square Fountain", seeing some stuff on the internet and volunteering to do something about it.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
As someone who has to try and cross it at least once a day I beg to differ. It's not literally a motorway of course but it is a multi-lane road which is very busy, carries a lot of heavy traffic and the 30mph limit isn't exactly universally observed.
But then again I'm another crazy person when it comes to cars.
Rushy
basically a scrotum
Ed - you've done a great job setting up this website and it is a real asset to the community but I am surprised that you think it should stop you having to take the same consultation routes as anyone else. As well as all the great stuff this site is also mixed in with quite a lot of shit (petty arguments, abuse, etc..) I would be pretty disappointed to think that someone at the council was spending too much time filtering through all of that looking for some gems from anonymous posters. If you have taken the time to write a constructive article send it to key people: councillors, MPs, Town Centre Manager, Chief Executive and Planning. You can do it by email and it will take you five minutes. You could even add key quotes from posters on U75. And they have to respond. The only advice I would give you for any such correspondence is that you will be taken more seriously if you are seen to give some credit as well as constructive criticism - the council reps are often a sensitive bunch and your voice will easily get lost in amongst all the angry people who do nothing but complain all day (which I am sure you are not).
I actually went to the committee meeting at which the plans for the square were finally approved. There were no details for the fountain and I spoke for a minute or so on how the fountain would be the centrepiece and how there was an opportunity to do something special like Somerset House or the temporary one outside RFH, etc.. The committee seemed to be completely (dare I say enthusiastically) in agreement and added a specific condition that the design of the fountain would have to be separately approved. Not sure who eventually signed it off but unfortunately conditions do not have to be publically consulted and I presume it was just a box ticking exercise by a junior rather than a properly considered approval: "Have they submitted a design for a fountain? Yes. Has it been submitted on the correct size piece of paper? Yes. Is the scale correct and is there an arrow showing north? Yes. Is it time to go home? Almost. TICK!". I imagine that the council themselves aren't too impressed with the fountain and I'll certainly be asking the Town Centre Manager whether there is any likelihood that it could be changed - often these things are easier to get done if tied into another project.
That said, I have been looking forward to the new square since it was proposed in about 2000 and I am really pleased with the final result. Given a blank canvass and autocratic free reign it is not entirely what I would have built but it is a vast improvement and I love walking across it (just not too close to the fountain when the wind is blowing!). Yes you can pick holes in it but you can pick holes in anything.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
I ride down it every day, busier than some roads in London, not as busy as others - personally I find it easier and safer to ride down than many other roads I have to take on my commute, but horses for courses...
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
It's a sewer because that's what we chose it to be. Could easily be a river again.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Fixed it for you.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
And you need to learn the difference between similie and hyperbole.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Is it still the A23, or has the bit along Effra road been reclassified as A204?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
As a council tax payer, I'm happy enough with the remodelled area. It looks better, seems to have more than just the collection of characters getting pissed in front of the Ritzy around it when I go past, and it's not been horrendously expensive, plus there's been a really useful traffic flow remodelling thing happen which benefits me as a pedestrian, cyclist, bus user and car driver.
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
you had little to do with windrush square, which was paid for by TFL
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
And you need to learn that the two are not mutually exclusive.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
As a regular user of TfL's services...etc
Hang on, if that's the case, where's the beef? Was there a load of local money thrown at this, or not?
Gixxer1000
cant wheelie a shaftie :(
So what percentage of this anecdotal figure of £10M was consultants or internal fees? Do you know the breakdown?
Gixxer1000
cant wheelie a shaftie :(
It would have been informative to have known the scope of works and how the costings were apportioned. For example whether the intrinsically linked road works to remove the one way system (you referred to this work previously as "stuff") is included in the £3M figure. In addition I have suggested that professional (internal) fees probably far outweigh the cost of actual work undertaken. It appears you've asked a simplistic question to which youve received a simplistic answer and so noone is any the wiser.
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