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Why does Football have such a problem with homophobia ?

mentalchik

"I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit."
And before anyone starts i'm well aware there are still huge problems with racism....I'm putting this thread here because i feel this is a bigger issue than hiding it away in the Football forum. I cannot wrap my head around why this is such a difficult and thorny problem for Football....other sports have very openly gay participants and there doen't appear to be such an issue...Is it the fans ? Is it the players ? Is it the whole machine of top level Football ? Am listening at the moment to gay men in Football who are expressing why they feel they just can't be open...this is off the back of the recent case in the news right now.

 
I think the tide is (hopefully) slowly turning but there's still a horrible, bigoted underbelly of football culture that'll scare anyone from coming out. Even more so if you're a referee.
 
But why, when loads of other sports have got to the point where it's no longer really an issue does Football stand out ? Over 100,000 premier players so statistically must be a fair few gay ones, it's a nonsense to me that coming out could be a career ending situation
 
It's a lot better than it was even a decade ago.

Outliers like Justin Fashanu and former Scottish referee Brian McGinlay were given unbelievable amounts of abuse in the 80s and 90s when their sexuality became known. Then there were individuals whose off-field interests such as Graeme Le Saux (art, culture, books) or Beckham (daring to wear a sarong in 1998) were singled out for a while, as their off-field interests were deemed 'gay', despite their being straight men.

The simple answer to your question is that it's everyone involved who is responsible not only for the problem but also solving it. There is a very long way to go, but a start and progress has been made significantly. For all those who were worried of the consequences of coming out, it's hard to have imagined stories like Jake Daniels, Thomas Hitzlsperger, or Josh Cavallo quarter of a century ago.

I get that official campaigns such as Rainbow Laces are seen as problematic and performative but they are important in having these issues discussed properly and providing a forum for greater understanding. Many professionals are now very open in saying they wouldn't have any problem at all with a gay team-mate and German international Manuel Neuer was stating bluntly that sexuality simply wasn't an issue anymore fifteen years ago. Jake Daniels had the unanimous support of his team-mates in coming out.

I'm afraid toxic masculinity and patriarchy cross over quite strongly in football crowds and in some dressing rooms and queerness is a big challenge to thse very essentialist, unthinking views of what a man / footballer should be. Stone Age stuff that's been around forever but will takes many more years of direct challenging and confronting to shift. Interestingly younger generations really seem not to care, and seem astonished when older folks like me point out just how challeneging things were for queer people at the end of the last century- battling instituionalised hatred and loathing as a daily occurrence, when being called a poof or a shirt lifter was not only unproblematic but widely supported and laughed at.

Interestingly it is not an issue at all in the womens' game which has professionalised to an unprecedented degree in the last fifteen years north and south of the border. There are many openly gay women playing the game at pro or semi-pro level and are not the target of abuse. Another interesting fact is the major cross-over between residual homophobes in a mens game crowd and skepticism of the coverage and support now afforded to the womens' game.

Using that sort of language now on a terrace means the person resposible likely to be banned from the ground if reported and where I am, arrested for a breach of the peace or hate crime.

tl;dr Things are getting better but perhaps too slowly. And football is a natural magnet for people who are angry about many many non-football things and will use any minority characteristic as a platform for abuse.

As you mention the issue of racism, I'd say tackling racial discrimination is a battle which football is further ahead in. I'm lucky enough not to really remember the 70s (I started going to football in the mid 80s and still watch 30-40 games a season all around the UK, mostly in Scotland). The knuckle draggers responsible for racist abuse in the 70s have been significantly challenged and marginalised, although there's no room for complacency. One of the first games I can remember was a Rous Cup game in '84 between Scotland and England; Mark Chamberlain and Luther Blissett were targeted with "Sambo, Sambo" by the home support in that game. I often have a half smile and rememebr that when the descendants of that crowd today claim that Scotland doesn't have a problem with racism.

E2A: Graeme Souness is quite good in this interview from 2019: Souness: Game can be more LGBT-inclusive

What he says here- that there will be a good number of gay and bi players in the top leagues but none have yet come out- is true. For all the improvements the enivronment isn't quite there yet for them to be open. But ways of coming out are as varied as the members of the queer communities around the UK. I'm sure many won't have confidence that Jake Daniels had, or maybe take the old-fashioned view that it's no-one else's business who they share their bed with, or they don't want the noise, hassle and attention that will come with taking that role. It's no surprise that Hitzelsperger didn't come out until he retired.

In some ways being a professional footballer is a horrible life; pain, exhaustion, always on the move, life planned out for you, the same fucking two dozen guys day after day after day doing the same shit for ten and a half months a year, always in the papers, abuse from darren8048745 on social media. I'm not talking about the EPL level where money and the club's infrastructure insulates you from all that to an extent. I'm talking about the guys at Tier 4 or 5 on much, much less money still living under a similar microscope. For many players coming out would be a distraction from performing at their very best on the park every week.

It's a catch-22; straight allies like in the interview above may wonder why no top flight role model has emerged, yet it is a position not many will relish. Things will likely snowball when someone decides they want to be that role model.
 
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It's a man's game for manly (straight) men, it's what the "normal" men do and go and see
Shitloads of testosterone, fosters, stella and a bit of pub dust on top of tribalism and gang mentality, proving your a real maaaan

Also

and what steeplejack just said more eloquently!
 
hy this is such a difficult and thorny problem for Football....other sports have very openly gay participants and there doen't appear to be such an issue...
But why, when loads of other sports have got to the point where it's no longer really an issue does Football stand out ?
Genuine Q, but which sports are you thinking of there?

I'll be the first to concede my knowledge is scant at best, but my impression was that, while perhaps not as explicitly homophobic as in the past, in male incarnations of the most (Western) mainstream sports it was still unusual for athletes to be publicly LGBTQ+ (though I believe it's more common for people to be 'out' among teammates).

Women's sport is a different story, of course, including football. Many players are openly in relationships and even married to each other, or just openly affectionate with their non-player partners.
 
Womens sports seem to be way ahead in terms of not really giving a fuck.....apparently there were nearly 200 openly gay atheletes/sportsmen/women at the 2024 Olympics, Tennis doesn't seem to have a problem.....people often put this down to "oh it's just typical football banter"....imo if it's in your head to say such things then you have a problem with homophobia/racism
 
I can't think of many openly gay professional sportsmen, full stop. So I think it is as much a (male) societal problem.
That said, football has almost uniquely large and loud crowds who have been chanting abuse at players and officials that is 'culturally unacceptable' for decades so that doesn't change overnight.

And to be blunt about some women's sports - a lot of the players are gay, so not really going to be an issue. Not to say there haven't been issues with women's football - they seem to have issues with racism against black players in a way that hasn't been the case in men's football for some time.
 
I'm afraid toxic masculinity and patriarchy cross over quite strongly in football crowds and in some dressing rooms and queerness is a big challenge to thse very essentialist, unthinking views of what a man / footballer should be. Stone Age stuff that's been around forever but will takes many more years of direct challenging and confronting to shift. Interestingly younger generations really seem not to care, and seem astonished when older folks like me point out just how challeneging things were for queer people at the end of the last century- battling instituionalised hatred and loathing as a daily occurrence, when being called a poof or a shirt lifter was not only unproblematic but widely supported and laughed at.

Good post Steeplejack, I particularly agree with this section.

The dominant culture in football - at elite and lower levels - remains reactionary on many levels and in many ways. That culture produces a vivid expectation of what a man/'baller' should be like and that does preclude being queer (and, for that matter being vulnerable/discussing MH issues/discussing feelings/not having a money obsession).

As you say, what action there has been within the game has been performative - rainbow laces, until the Saudi headchoppers object, etc - rather than a genuine movement of supporters and players to tackle some of the assumptions, cliches and prejudices contained within the dominant culture. Building that bottom up movement would do more to give confidence to players to come out than surface level top down campaigns.

You are however right to say that compared to the 90's it is much better. A number of clubs have out gay supporter groups, younger supporters will have a different experience and outlook to what we grew up amongst which was, on this issue, fucking horrible. Let's hope that these groups can make interventions into the culture and change it.

However, if we take race as an example we can see how far the game has to go generally.

Whilst there are lots of top down vaguely worded campaigns about racism, lots of black players and lots of black security/catering and cleaning staff in football there aren't so many in boardrooms, managers jobs or in the stands. As such football is a perfect microcosm of society - lots of identity politics and gestures as long as they do not impact on profit/power relations and those making Millions out of the sport.
 
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But why, when loads of other sports have got to the point where it's no longer really an issue does Football stand out ? Over 100,000 premier players so statistically must be a fair few gay ones, it's a nonsense to me that coming out could be a career ending situation
A lot of footballers at the top level are Muslim or Christian, and come from countries where homosexuality is either banned or taboo. Look at Morsy, Gueye, Ahmedhodzic, Mazraoui and Guéhi and how they've reacted to anything rainbow-related (and Gueye had Paul Embery defending him and saying he was braver than that gay Blackpool player). If you're gay and on a team with someone like Ahmedhodzic, or Gattuso (who's made some homophobic comments in the past), would you want to be openly gay and risk being targeted? Remember how Joey Barton used to target his black team mates? Not that non-religious Brits are much better, remember Graeme Le Saux (who wasn't even gay) and the likes of Robbie Fowler and Andy Townsend targeting him?

Also agreed about racism. Barton claims black people are taking management jobs from whites, but if you look at the Premier League, there's ONE black manager. ONE. And that's Nuno at Forest. I can't remember which other EFL clubs have black managers other than Port Vale, but there's so few of them and it's depressing, and OK, so we don't have black players having bananas lobbed at them or Everton fans singing 'Everton are white', but they still get monkey chants and racial abuse. Les Ferdinand was right. Taking the knee is all very well but it's not enough. And yes, women's football does have a racism problem, though with the amount of black and Asian players coming into the WSL, I think it'll get better with time.

And don't get me started on the attitude to women either. There is definitely an overlap between people who think Dominic Calvert-Lewin is a poof because he's into clothes and fantasise about him being beaten up, and people who think women's football is woke and doesn't deserve coverage and constantly complain about it on HYS to the point where you wonder who's making them watch it. When Jill Scott won I'm a Celebrity, there were some lovely comments on articles about it calling her a 'rug muncher', same with Beth Mead when she talked about being a lesbian.
 
Probably because male football has such a mass appeal it attracts people from all walks of life including homophobes, racists and people with a tendency towards violence.

That plus the tribal nature of it with longstanding rivalries from domestic leagues to international grudge matches brings out the worst in people. So any hint of being 'other' than the mostly male/white mouth breathers gets lept on. Race, sexuality, whatever. Being a 'Manc' twat, or a 'Thieving Scouser' - it's quite sad really.
 
The 90s were terrible for it. I wouldn't have wanted to be an outsider on the Sheffield Wednesday team, for instance - I get the impression that they were very cliquey and didn't like people who didn't fit in. Carbone and Di Canio, for instance, although they didn't help themselves at times, but I think the English players disliked them because of how dedicated they were to training and it showed the English players up. And there was a very heavy drinking, pranking and violence culture at that club, at least in the Atkinson era. Nigel Pearson apparently put apprentices in sacks if he didn't like how they'd cleaned his boots. David Hirst and Carlton Palmer played with hangovers. And so on.

And then you've got the Crazy Gang. Imagine being one of their chosen victims.
 
But rugby Union’s most famous ( probably only ‘ celebrity’) referee Nigel Owen was openly gay. And he was from Wales where the supporters are traditionally much more a mix of classes than the traditional red trousered braying piss drinking estate agents in England*


* I am not an estate agent, I don’t bray and I don’t have any red trousers…
 
A lot of footballers at the top level are Muslim or Christian, and come from countries where homosexuality is either banned or taboo. Look at Morsy, Gueye, Ahmedhodzic, Mazraoui and Guéhi and how they've reacted to anything rainbow-related (and Gueye had Paul Embery defending him and saying he was braver than that gay Blackpool player). If you're gay and on a team with someone like Ahmedhodzic, or Gattuso (who's made some homophobic comments in the past), would you want to be openly gay and risk being targeted? Remember how Joey Barton used to target his black team mates? Not that non-religious Brits are much better, remember Graeme Le Saux (who wasn't even gay) and the likes of Robbie Fowler and Andy Townsend targeting him?

Also agreed about racism. Barton claims black people are taking management jobs from whites, but if you look at the Premier League, there's ONE black manager. ONE. And that's Nuno at Forest. I can't remember which other EFL clubs have black managers other than Port Vale, but there's so few of them and it's depressing, and OK, so we don't have black players having bananas lobbed at them or Everton fans singing 'Everton are white', but they still get monkey chants and racial abuse. Les Ferdinand was right. Taking the knee is all very well but it's not enough. And yes, women's football does have a racism problem, though with the amount of black and Asian players coming into the WSL, I think it'll get better with time.

And don't get me started on the attitude to women either. There is definitely an overlap between people who think Dominic Calvert-Lewin is a poof because he's into clothes and fantasise about him being beaten up, and people who think women's football is woke and doesn't deserve coverage and constantly complain about it on HYS to the point where you wonder who's making them watch it. When Jill Scott won I'm a Celebrity, there were some lovely comments on articles about it calling her a 'rug muncher', same with Beth Mead when she talked about being a lesbian.
Reminds me of SPOTY from 2 years ago and seeing comments on then twitter about Beth Mead, "why doesn't she make herself more attractive" or "she's too fit to be a lesbian" and sad remarks of that ilk :(

Then Mary Earps last year and even though there were nice comments about her sporting ability and achievements, there were far too many that seemed obsessed with ripping in to what she was wearing as if that was the most important thing 😞
 
But rugby Union’s most famous ( probably only ‘ celebrity’) referee Nigel Owen was openly gay. And he was from Wales where the supporters are traditionally much more a mix of classes than the traditional red trousered braying piss drinking estate agents in England*


* I am not an estate agent, I don’t bray and I don’t have any red trousers…

And Gareth Thomas. Rugby doesn't seem to attract the same level of twattery as football thankfully.

England is by no means alone here. Pretty sure similar levels of homophobia can be found in South America/Europe. Certainly the same levels of mindless male violence can.
 
But rugby Union’s most famous ( probably only ‘ celebrity’) referee Nigel Owen was openly gay. And he was from Wales where the supporters are traditionally much more a mix of classes than the traditional red trousered braying piss drinking estate agents in England*


* I am not an estate agent, I don’t bray and I don’t have any red trousers…
Rugby supporters tend to be a little different to football supporters. Their knuckles are a little further from the floor.
 
And Gareth Thomas. Rugby doesn't seem to attract the same level of twattery as football thankfully.

England is by no means alone here. Pretty sure similar levels of homophobia can be found in South America/Europe. Certainly the same levels of mindless male violence can.
I'm trying to remember when Gareth Thomas came out, I'm sure it was after or around when he retired? He had a lot of support from rugby circles and generally as I recall but then he also unfortunately had the controversery around HIV 😕
 
What's that saying about a hooligans game played by gentleman and vice versa? Seems apt with how big of a problem things still are in the footy.
 
Reminds me of SPOTY from 2 years ago and seeing comments on then twitter about Beth Mead, "why doesn't she make herself more attractive" or "she's too fit to be a lesbian" and sad remarks of that ilk :(

Then Mary Earps last year and even though there were nice comments about her sporting ability and achievements, there were far too many that seemed obsessed with ripping in to what she was wearing as if that was the most important thing 😞
Ah yes, people having a normal one about Earps and saying giving her SPOTY is woke because it's not like she's the number 1 keeper of a team who won the Euros or anything. It's funny, the same men who accuse trans women of destroying women's sports don't seem to be fussed about cis women who play sport either.

For these men, it's women's duty to be pretty. We exist to be looked at. I mean, look at the shit a footballer's wife/girlfriend gets if she doesn't look like a model. Some nasty little teen went on about how fat Sessegnon's girlfriend was despite him not being exactly thin either.
 
I'm trying to remember when Gareth Thomas came out, I'm sure it was after or around when he retired? He had a lot of support from rugby circles and generally as I recall but then he also unfortunately had the controversery around HIV 😕

Gareth Thomas was an inspiring example and had a lot of support not just in rugby but across society generally. I absolutely detest rugby union as well, but you couldn't be a functioning human and not have enormous empathy with his story.
 
so that's 2 (two) out gay people in rugby history... that's fewer than football, isn't it?

there is also the fact nobody is obliged to mention their sexuality as a pro sportsman.
 
there is also the fact nobody is obliged to mention their sexuality as a pro sportsman.
Or sportswoman.

And no, of course there's no obligation. But there should be an environment where people are comfortable about being open about their sexuality, rather than feeling they need to hide it.

I mean i saw the toll that took on friends back in the day (at work for example) and that obviously wasn't in high-profile roles where that must be way, way worse.
 
so that's 2 (two) out gay people in rugby history... that's fewer than football, isn't it?

there is also the fact nobody is obliged to mention their sexuality as a pro sportsman.


There’s a lot more than that. It’s just Nigel Owens was a celebrity in his own right in away no football and no other rugby refs are* but his sexuality was neither here nor there when it came to his officiating or his punditry, which of course, is how it should be for everyone.


. Ok the last one wasn’t a professional but still.

( *still is, I think he has his own Welsh language chat show)
 
Carl Nassib, while being a member of the Las Vegas Raiders came out as gay a couple of years ago. As far as I can tell from here, it didn't create much fuss.

The Raiders have always been at the forefront of "social justice":

During Al Davis’ reign as Raiders coach, general manager and principal owner, “taking a knee” usually meant downing a football in the end zone and assuming possession on the 20-yard line.

It’s a different story today.

But when it came to social justice and providing opportunities for minorities, he was eons ahead of his time.

Here are just five examples:

Aces fill coaching staff




1. Twice during the 1960s Davis refused to let the Raiders travel to Southern cities for exhibition and all-star games where the Raiders’ Black and white players were not permitted to stay in the same hotel. “So you un
derstand?” Davis reportedly was asked when told of the segregation policy. “I understand,” he said. “(And) we’re not coming.”

2. Davis was first to draft a Black quarterback in the first round. Tennessee State’s Eldridge Dickey never played a down at quarterback for the Raiders; he was switched to wide receiver during training camp in 1968 (t
he Raiders had picked Ken Stabler in the second round that year). Still, as Dickey said before his death in 2000: “Looking back now, gosh, that was a huge step for Al Davis. I could see he was seeing beyond complexion.


3. Tom Flores and Mike Ditka are the only men to win the Super Bowl as a player, assistant coach and head coach. Flores is the only Latino to do it, thanks mostly to Davis: “He always thought that 10 years was the max
that you should be in the job,” Flores told the Palm Springs (California) Desert Sun in 2019. “Well, I finished nine.”

4. Davis hired the NFL’s first Black head coach in 1989. Art Shell coached the Raiders twice. After the second time, he and Davis had a falling out that was never resolved. But as Shell said after his former boss’ deat
h in 2012: “I could not have gotten to where I got without him. He gave me an opportunity to be a player; he gave me an opportunity to be an assistant coach, head football coach, and to coach that football team twice.”

5. Davis also was first in the NFL to hire a female chief executive. “He wasn’t doing it for style points or political correctness points,” Amy Trask, Raiders’ CEO from 1997 to 2013, told the New York Times. “When rule
s were put in place about hiring, those of us who work for the Raiders would look at each other and smile. He hired the way we hope everybody would hire. He didn’t understand or care about the significance of what he w
as doing. He did it because it was the right thing to do.
 
At the amateur level, there's an LGBTQ+ team near where I used to play. The youngsters thought it was great, but I was always a bit sad that it had to exist in the first place and LGBTQ+ players weren't just accepted like everyone else in local teams. Wessex Wyverns RFC Rugby Team | Wessex Wyverns | Southampton IGR.

League was always better for inclusivity IMO, but I tend to think of that in a more inti-racist way, only gay player I can think of was Ian Roberts (came out 1995), but I'm not a mega fan of either code, prefer playing to watching so I might not be taking notice.

Edited to add the International Gay Rugby site: International Gay Rugby – For the love of rugby. No matter who you love.
 
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