Why can't we just have a 'standard' border in Northern Ireland re: Brexit

[krtek a houby]

I say again: blah blah blah.


The fact that a group treated another like shite doesn't in any way justify violence against anyone other than against the violent oppressors at the time of the oppression.

Please don't pretend that you think I'm ignorant of the history of Ireland as seen through English eyes or t'other way around. Please don't, however gossamer-like the connection, lay "resistance " as an explanation for murder.

If you go into someone's country and take away everything from them and leave a legacy of discrimination and make them second class citizens, there will be resistance. And sadly, that will take the form of violence in many instances. See also, Palestine.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I say again: blah blah blah.


The fact that a group treated another like shite doesn't in any way justify violence against anyone other than against the violent oppressors at the time of the oppression.

Please don't pretend that you think I'm ignorant of the history of Ireland as seen through English eyes or t'other way around. Please don't, however gossamer-like the connection, lay "resistance " as an explanation for murder.

You keep telling me how to think....thats upsetting.

I'm not supporting the murder of innocents in any way, by discussing what happened to people who lived in Ireland. I'm also not automatically supporting the Provos because I believe that at some stage this country will unite. People here, in Northern Ireland and the Republic and indeed the UK, have paid very dearly for the current tentative peace that exists. It's one that nobody wants to break.

Do you think anyone who has gone through the pain and horror of the troubles in NI EVER wants someone innocent to die.... the Warrington bombing on Bridge street was dreadful. It will always be horrific and wrong.

So much that has been done in Ireland and the UK was done by men with bombs or guns who were following orders... whether they held that gun as a British paratrooper or a Provo....they were all fucked up by the troubles.


From the BBC Inside Out Documentary 2013...on the Warrington bomb....
Have you seen this? Its worth watching.



I'll repeat though, for you...Nothing in any of my posts is saying that I support the murder of innocent people. In fact I've consistently stated that nobody wants to return to the violence of the troubles. And if by detailing what occurred here to my family for generations until very recently and my discussions about my family members who were in the old IRA, has led you to think that I automatically condone the murders of innocents in Warrington then you're wrong.

You've no true understanding at all of what has been done in your government's name to many innocent people in NI and the Republic and indeed in the UK. I understand how horrific it is to see innocent people and children murdered for political reasons....whether that's in the UK or Ireland. I do not support those who placed bombs in bins on Bridge Street in Warrington that led to innocent people including children being murdered. You seem to be condemning all Irish people for it....because a majority here want unity? Think about that for a moment....That's not ok.

 

[likesfish]

Solved the Irish Border situation and its a Brilliant solution.
We outsource a hard secure Border to G4S complete with watchtowers and an IT customs system.
so what we will get is a dozen bored people in a portacabin in the docklands watching some stupid e-learning package.
The border remains open EU and anybody who needs to know is told the border will be sealed anytime now.

The 70s re-enactment groups can have fun trying to disrupt the building of the border as nothing is actually going to be done that will be difficult
everyone is happy
G4S incompetence is used as a weapon for good.

 

[isvicthere?]

Solved the Irish Border situation and its a Brilliant solution.
We outsource a hard secure Border to G4S complete with watchtowers and an IT customs system.
so what we will get is a dozen bored people in a portacabin in the docklands watching some stupid e-learning package.
The border remains open EU and anybody who needs to know is told the border will be sealed anytime now.

The 70s re-enactment groups can have fun trying to disrupt the building of the border as nothing is actually going to be done that will be difficult
everyone is happy
G4S incompetence is used as a weapon for good.

*wonders why likesfish isn't in the cabinet*

 

[LiamO]

From the BBC Inside Out Documentary 2013...on the Warrington bomb....
Have you seen this? Its worth watching.

It's also a complete load of bollocks.

 

[Poi E]

..

 

[MickiQ]

Solved the Irish Border situation and its a Brilliant solution.
We outsource a hard secure Border to G4S complete with watchtowers and an IT customs system.
so what we will get is a dozen bored people in a portacabin in the docklands watching some stupid e-learning package.
The border remains open EU and anybody who needs to know is told the border will be sealed anytime now.

The 70s re-enactment groups can have fun trying to disrupt the building of the border as nothing is actually going to be done that will be difficult
everyone is happy
G4S incompetence is used as a weapon for good.

I look forward to campaigning for you when you run for office

 

[Idris2002]

Solved the Irish Border situation and its a Brilliant solution.
We outsource a hard secure Border to G4S complete with watchtowers and an IT customs system.
so what we will get is a dozen bored people in a portacabin in the docklands watching some stupid e-learning package.
The border remains open EU and anybody who needs to know is told the border will be sealed anytime now.

The 70s re-enactment groups can have fun trying to disrupt the building of the border as nothing is actually going to be done that will be difficult
everyone is happy
G4S incompetence is used as a weapon for good.

Seventies re-enactment, you say?

 

[Pickman's model]

A large Majority of remain voters have died as well

please to reveal more about this silent slaughter

 

[Poi E]

Irish Unionism. Surely you could wear a sash with that. "Reunification" doesn't have a marching band but Irish Unionism does. Orange and green is such a nice combo.

 

[Celyn]

I might be a bit concerned about people who have died as well. I thought people dying usually were unwell.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

It's also a complete load of bollocks.

You're probably right.

 

[Cheesepig3]

You could always cut off your cock.
Problem solved.

It wasn't my jizz.

 

[Cheesepig3]

I have never cheerleaded for murder. A nation was raped and brutalised - and some resisted the British reign of terror. I understand completely why there was violence.

Violence which you also added to, btw. How's that for delusion and complicity?

Blowing up/shooting those responsible for, ahem, the British reign of terror... hm, ok. Go for it Seamus you're a good lad.


Blowing up pubs in Birmingham?

Hardly.


This is where muddy thinkers like you come unstuck.


You take the unsupported step from resistance to terrorism.


Fail, badly.

 

[Cheesepig3]

You keep telling me how to think....thats upsetting.

I'm not supporting the murder of innocents in any way, by discussing what happened to people who lived in Ireland. I'm also not automatically supporting the Provos because I believe that at some stage this country will unite. People here, in Northern Ireland and the Republic and indeed the UK, have paid very dearly for the current tentative peace that exists. It's one that nobody wants to break.

Do you think anyone who has gone through the pain and horror of the troubles in NI EVER wants someone innocent to die.... the Warrington bombing on Bridge street was dreadful. It will always be horrific and wrong.

So much that has been done in Ireland and the UK was done by men with bombs or guns who were following orders... whether they held that gun as a British paratrooper or a Provo....they were all fucked up by the troubles.


From the BBC Inside Out Documentary 2013...on the Warrington bomb....
Have you seen this? Its worth watching.



I'll repeat though, for you...Nothing in any of my posts is saying that I support the murder of innocent people. In fact I've consistently stated that nobody wants to return to the violence of the troubles. And if by detailing what occurred here to my family for generations until very recently and my discussions about my family members who were in the old IRA, has led you to think that I automatically condone the murders of innocents in Warrington then you're wrong.

You've no true understanding at all of what has been done in your government's name to many innocent people in NI and the Republic and indeed in the UK. I understand how horrific it is to see innocent people and children murdered for political reasons....whether that's in the UK or Ireland. I do not support those who placed bombs in bins on Bridge Street in Warrington that led to innocent people including children being murdered. You seem to be condemning all Irish people for it....because a majority here want unity? Think about that for a moment....That's not ok.

Absolutely no, I am not condemning all Irish people for the atrocities committed, falsely, in their name.


I'm pointing out that it's illegitimate to cloak those atrocities in a forgiving veil of "resistance" as if such atrocities are somehow explicable in moral terms.


By the by, one of the best things I ever did was to supply information which led to two UVF terrorists going down for a long time.


It's unjust violence against the innocent that I find pesky regardless of the person doing it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Blowing up/shooting those responsible for, ahem, the British reign of terror... hm, ok. Go for it Seamus you're a good lad.


Blowing up pubs in Birmingham?

Hardly.


This is where muddy thinkers like you come unstuck.


You take the unsupported step from resistance to terrorism.


Fail, badly.

The unsupported step? Well, yeh, if you're republican. If by contrast you're a loyalist or, particularly, a soldier, well, er, different rules apply. Ian Thain? Lee Clegg? People running death squads in the six counties, do you think they'll ever face justice? Or the people who bombed monaghan and dublin?

 

[Cheesepig3]

The unsupported step? Well, yeh, if you're republican. If by contrast you're a loyalist or, particularly, a soldier, well, er, different rules apply. Ian Thain? Lee Clegg? People running death squads in the six counties, do you think they'll ever face justice? Or the people who bombed monaghan and dublin?

Different rules certainly should not apply.


I don't know what point you are trying to make.

That justice is flawed? Surely not; who's going to waste e-ink on something so tritely 6th-form.

The unsupported step is difficult for you to stand with me in sneering at, sneerily. Do you feel a faint wistful regret that PIRA are still reviled by everyone with an IQ or a Janet and John level of morality?

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Different rules certainly should not apply.


I don't know what point you are trying to make.

That justice is flawed? Surely not; who's going to waste e-ink on something so tritely 6th-form.

The unsupported step is difficult for you to stand with me in sneering at, sneerily. Do you feel a faint wistful regret that PIRA are still reviled by everyone with an IQ or a Janet and John level of morality?

Are you drunk or something?

You're condemnation of Warrington is one thing but you're now condemning the PIRA for existing....
The British government and unionists in NI are the reason the PIRA came into existence. You want to judge? Start judging the reasons for the British Army being sent into communities into NI. Judge that. Judge what they did.
They're the reason the PIRA existed. 51% of those killed by the British army were civilians...not paramilitaries. 61 of those killed by the British Army in NI were children. In Everyone’s Interest: Recording All The Dead, Not Just Our Own". The British Army Review, issue 149.
Are those deaths not important in your view?

 

[krtek a houby]

Blowing up/shooting those responsible for, ahem, the British reign of terror... hm, ok. Go for it Seamus you're a good lad.


Blowing up pubs in Birmingham?

Hardly.


This is where muddy thinkers like you come unstuck.


You take the unsupported step from resistance to terrorism.


Fail, badly.

Who the fuck is Seamus?

And when did I take any steps towards terrorism?

I have repeatedly denonunced the murders and bombings carried out by paramilitaries, British crown forces and the RUC and their colluders.

You on the other hand, by doing your "Irish cooking" in the occupied 6 counties contributed to the horror and misery there.

Crocodile tears.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

And while we are at it.. .Only four British soldiers were convicted of murder while on duty in Northern Ireland. All were released after serving two or three years of life sentences and allowed to rejoin the Army.
(McGovern, Mark. "Ignatieff, Ireland and the 'lesser evil'", in Discourses and Practices of Terrorism. Routledge, 2010. p.145)

Look at the British army's shoot to kill policy. In April 1970 Ian Freeland, (ironic name is ironic) the British Army's commander in Northern Ireland, announced that anyone throwing petrol bombs would be shot dead if they did not heed a warning from soldiers.

What about internment?
The Ballymurphy massacre?
British Army murders 11 civilians for.....?
What about Bloody Sunday?

The peacekeepers were not "peace keepers". They were biased against Catholic communities and they were led to deliberately intimidate and shoot those living in these communities.

Only now since Sept 2018 has the inquest into the Ballymurphy killings begun...along with 56 other killings...and this is after Amnesty international and the Lord chief justice in NI legislated for it...Ms Foster and the DUP having illegally delayed the process for too long.. Foster confirmed she had used her influence in the devolved power-sharing executive to hold back finance for a backlog of inquests connected to the conflict.The High Court said "her decision to refuse to put a funding paper on the Executive basis was unlawful and procedurally flawed".

If you're going to judge people then judge them all cheesepig

 

[Pickman's model]

Different rules certainly should not apply.


I don't know what point you are trying to make.

That justice is flawed? Surely not; who's going to waste e-ink on something so tritely 6th-form.

The unsupported step is difficult for you to stand with me in sneering at, sneerily. Do you feel a faint wistful regret that PIRA are still reviled by everyone with an IQ or a Janet and John level of morality?

I thought we'd left the association of Irish with thick in the last century but clearly not. Many thousands of thickos, if not 30493, in fermanagh/South Tyrone in 1981 I suppose

 

[Pickman's model]

Different rules certainly should not apply.


I don't know what point you are trying to make.

That justice is flawed? Surely not; who's going to waste e-ink on something so tritely 6th-form.

The unsupported step is difficult for you to stand with me in sneering at, sneerily. Do you feel a faint wistful regret that PIRA are still reviled by everyone with an IQ or a Janet and John level of morality?

A very simple point. You say that terrorism is unsupported, whereas it very much is supported if you're a state-backed murderer or director of murder. Yeh I'm sure you'd love the pira to have been unsupported. But the facts of the matter are different.

 

[likesfish]

well at least you admit it was terrorism.
A communist I knew summed the whole thing up as a Guinness soaked farce easter rising 2 this time somebody else can die for our ideals.
"we are going to defeat the British army with less than a 1000 gunmen "
that didn't work
we are going to outlast the British that didnt work either sorry about the pile of corpses

 

[Pickman's model]

well at least you admit it was terrorism.
A communist I knew summed the whole thing up as a Guinness soaked farce easter rising 2 this time somebody else can die for our ideals.
"we are going to defeat the British army with less than a 1000 gunmen "
that didn't work
we are going to outlast the British that didnt work either sorry about the pile of corpses

I'm hampered by cheesepig's terminology. I'm not going to say the pira were only terrorists when I didn't like what they did: to say aye to Brighton in 84 OK but no to Birmingham 74. There are things I might prefer not to have happened. However when things a thousand times worse than anything the ra did are done by the UK or allies like incineration of 400 civilians in a Baghdad air raid shelter rather less opprobrium attaches to the state and its supporters are never called upon to jump the way republicans are. Complicity in the deaths of half a million children? Not as bad as relying on the police to act on warnings.

I think it noteworthy that yer man's used two examples from England for his unsupported terrorism. Presumably paddies killing other paddies less reprehensible

 

[not-bono-ever]

DUP chief whip days no deal

Sky falls on heads

 

[likesfish]

Their the fools who made everything responsible last decades longer and are still bitter the troubles are over.
The fact these people are still being voted on and get to hold the balance of power in the UK is deeply disturbing

 

[Pickman's model]

Their the fools who made everything responsible last decades longer and are still bitter the troubles are over.
The fact these people are still being voted on and get to hold the balance of power in the UK is deeply disturbing

Wouldn't trust them to hold a pint of guinness

 

[likesfish]

Not sure SF are much better even with the "special" rules for Stormont they both managed to fuck up a wood chip subsidy

 

[flypanam]

Not sure SF are much better even with the "special" rules for Stormont they both managed to fuck up a wood chip subsidy

Plenty of shit can be thrown at the Me Feiners like supporting pip, universal (dis)credit, and the bed room tax, but I fail to see how RHI is their fault.

 

[LiamO]

Not sure SF are much better even with the "special" rules for Stormont they both managed to fuck up a wood chip subsidy

Sometimes, old stock, your wanton ignorance takes my breath away.