White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years

[Casually Red]

Do you feel any hint of sympathy for her? On some level I agree with you, but it comes across to me that she's a bit lost and fucked up, and always has been, and that's what's lead to this situation now.

On one level I feel sorry for anyone who's in a humiliating situation . And sorry for anyone who's so lost in life . But it's completely self inflicted . The fact is though that she's a ..very..white person who blacked up . Totally out of order . And then sat on a high horse playing id politics and pronouncing moral judgements about all sorts of people around her . Including other African Americans . I'm just aghast at anyone making excuses for her behaviour .

 

[littlebabyjesus]

On one level I feel sorry for anyone who's in a humiliating situation . And sorry for anyone who's so lost in life . But it's completely self inflicted . The fact is though that she's a ..very..white person who blacked up . Totally out of order . And then sat on a high horse playing id politics and pronouncing moral judgements about all sorts of people around her . Including other African Americans . I'm just aghast at anyone making excuses for her behaviour .

In some ways I'm more annoyed by what's happened since she was found out. The idea that we all have some kind of deep racial identity akin in any way to gender identity is just bollocks, and hateful bollocks at that.

 

[Athos]

In some ways I'm more annoyed by what's happened since she was found out. The idea that we all have some kind of deep racial identity akin in any way to gender identity is just bollocks, and hateful bollocks at that.

Why is it bollocks? And why hateful?

 

[camouflage]

Why is it bollocks? And why hateful?

Well can't speak for lbj but that sounds like the essence of racism to me. May as well go full Blut und Eisen on the shizzle at that rate.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why is it bollocks? And why hateful?

It's bollocks because kids have to be taught about race and that there are different races, and may not really realise such a thing until long after they have started talking. That's utterly different from gender, something into which we begin to be socialised from birth, and something that we may very well have evolved to seek out.

It's hateful because it suggests some kind of essential nature to race, which aside from being wrong is vile and divisive.

 

[Athos]

Well can't speak for lbj but that sounds like the essence of racism to me. May as well go full Blut und Eisen on the shizzle at that rate.

The idea that racial identity is similar in nature to gender identity is the "essence of racism"? Really?

 

[Athos]

It's bollocks because kids have to be taught about race and that there are different races, and may not really realise such a thing until long after they have started talking. That's utterly different from gender, something into which we begin to be socialised from birth, and something that we may very well have evolved to seek out.

It's hateful because it suggests some kind of essential nature to race, which aside from being wrong is vile and divisive.

What is your evidence for the idea that kids have to be taught aboout race? Or that they realise gender differences from before they can speak? And, why is the timing significant, anyway? How is the nature of the two socially constructed identities so different?

Is the concept of gender identity essentialism? Is that wrong, vile and divisive?

 

[EastEnder]

This is an awesome blog piece about the woman's recent name change: We, The Nigerians, Do Not Accept Rachel Dolezal's New Name | Awesomely Luvvie

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is an awesome blog piece about the woman's recent name change: We, The Nigerians, Do Not Accept Rachel Dolezal's New Name | Awesomely Luvvie

describes her as a 'nutbucket'. Yep. But a nutbucket with a book deal. tbh the best thing we could do right now would be to totally ignore her.

 

[camouflage]

The idea that racial identity is similar in nature to gender identity is the "essence of racism"? Really?

No, racial essentialism is essentially racism.

Gender essentialism... if there's anything to that I reckon it'll be just about biochemistry, with men wondering about up to our gills on testosterone all day compared to women anyway, does chemistry count for essentialism or is it like when you take a pill? Fucked if I know, doses and their impact can change anyway.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's bollocks because kids have to be taught about race and that there are different races,

I recall my young child seeing a seagull and saying 'Bird!'

Another day, they would see a blue jay and say 'Bird!'

I'm not sure that's conclusive proof that there is no such thing as 'seagulls' and 'blue jays'; that all there is, is 'Birds!'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I recall my young child seeing a seagull and saying 'Bird!'

Another day, they would see a blue jay and say 'Bird!'

I'm not sure that's conclusive proof that there are no differences between seagulls and blue jays.

That's not what I'm saying, though. I'm not saying that there are no differences between people that can be categorised as race. There are, and we do it! Hence we can conclusively say that Rachel Dolezal, or should I say Nkechi Amare Diallo, is not black. But she is a nutbucket.

 

[Athos]

Hence we can conclusively say that Rachel Dolezal, or should I say Nkechi Amare Diallo, is not black.

On what basis?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

On what basis?

We had a big long thread on this a while back, in which, somewhat tortuously but with a deal of good will between posters, we came up with a definition of race that I think everyone could agree with. Saying that the idea of 'racial identity' is nothing like gender identity ≠ saying that race doesn't exist.

 

[Athos]

... Saying that the idea of 'racial identity' is nothing like gender identity ≠ saying that race doesn't exist.

I've not said a anything to the contrary.

I've asked you questions in a couple of posts, now, but you haven't answered them.

You keep making bold assertions with no evidence or explanation.

Why is gender identity nothing like racial identity?

 

[Pickman's model]

It's bollocks because kids have to be taught about race and that there are different races, and may not really realise such a thing until long after they have started talking. That's utterly different from gender, something into which we begin to be socialised from birth, and something that we may very well have evolved to seek out.

It's hateful because it suggests some kind of essential nature to race, which aside from being wrong is vile and divisive.

So people are taught about - socialised into - gender. And you say people are taught about race. I'm not spotting the great divide here between two social constructs. There is no essential nature to race. There is no essential nature to gender. Why is it utterly different?

 

[Pickman's model]

I've not said a anything to the contrary.

I've asked you questions in a couple of posts, now, but you haven't answered them.

You keep making bold assertions with no evidence or explanation.

Why is gender identity nothing like racial identity?

Because he says so.

 

[Raheem]

In some ways I'm more annoyed by what's happened since she was found out. The idea that we all have some kind of deep racial identity akin in any way to gender identity is just bollocks, and hateful bollocks at that.

Has this actually happened to a significant extent, though? My impression is of RD trying to appeal to this idea and 99% of the world saying "Yeah, sure" and circling a finger round one ear once her back is turned.

 

[equationgirl]

She's been interviewed by someone at the BBC about her forthcoming book and she talks about the concept of 'transracialism', which apparently is a bit like being transgendered only changing race.

There's a link to the video interview on the BBC website (it's called The idea of race is a lie) but I'm having trouble pasting the link on my phone.

 

[belboid]

Rachel Dolezal: 'The idea of race is a lie' - BBC News

I can't watch it now, I know it won't be good for my blood pressure.

 

[Raheem]

Rachel Dolezal: 'The idea of race is a lie' - BBC News

I can't watch it now, I know it won't be good for my blood pressure.

Seems like there's been a mix-up and they posted a Brass Eye outtake instead of the actual interview. Once they rectify this, I'll let you know what the contents are.

 

[8ball]

It's odd. She has some real problems combined with an incredible lack of insight, and has experienced racism herself (though a certain Pulp lyric springs to mind when I say that), and has also done some good things, sadly now rather tainted.

The book deal, of course, was taken as read on this thread right from the start...

On balance, I'd say she's had more than enough attention and it would be best if she just went away - I can't see any debates about race being much helped by her self-justifications.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The next step:

White working class cis males eating out of bins accepting they're privileged because skin.
What a mess identity politics is.

 

[spanglechick]

The next step:

White working class cis males eating out of bins accepting they're privileged because skin.
What a mess identity politics is.

It's quite simple: as undoubtedly shit as their lives are, it would be harder if they also experienced the same racism as black people, or if they were trans gender, or if they were disabled and so on. "Privilege" is a spectacularly unhelpful word, but the theory is sound.

 

[pengaleng]

In some ways I'm more annoyed by what's happened since she was found out. The idea that we all have some kind of deep racial identity akin in any way to gender identity is just bollocks, and hateful bollocks at that.

I fuckin hate this shit

 

[pengaleng]

It's quite simple: as undoubtedly shit as their lives are, it would be harder if they also experienced the same racism as black people, or if they were trans gender, or if they were disabled and so on. "Privilege" is a spectacularly unhelpful word, but the theory is sound.

there needs to be a different word. one cant throw 'privilege' around when discussing people at the bottom, it's offensive to them - especially when the people telling them that have degrees and mortgages and good jobs and shit.

 

[DotCommunist]

I don't have a word for it, just an example that I use to show how race can cut across class lines. Imagine well connected nice car high flying black barrister stopped in the wrong county by the wrong police. He's going to get the treatment. And yes obvs thats shading over all sorts of other things but thats just the starkest example I can think of

 

[seventh bullet]

It's quite simple: as undoubtedly shit as their lives are, it would be harder if they also experienced the same racism as black people, or if they were trans gender, or if they were disabled and so on. "Privilege" is a spectacularly unhelpful word, but the theory is sound.

Which theory?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It's quite simple: as undoubtedly shit as their lives are, it would be harder if they also experienced the same racism as black people, or if they were trans gender, or if they were disabled and so on. "Privilege" is a spectacularly unhelpful word, but the theory is sound.

The Irish have experienced bigotry but according to the wheel of oppression they're privileged as long as they're straight cis males.
Obviously we can pull out examples where it's 'sound' but equally there's examples where it's ridiculous.

 

[Athos]

It's quite simple: as undoubtedly shit as their lives are, it would be harder if they also experienced the same racism as black people, or if they were trans gender, or if they were disabled and so on. "Privilege" is a spectacularly unhelpful word, but the theory is sound.

In a world where all other things are equal between two hypothetical comparators, then it's logically sound. But it has little practical use in the real world, and, worse, is often deployed as a tactic quite nonsensically and dishonestly.