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Where was Thurlow Place, Lower Norwood?

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hiraethified
I've received this message. Can anyone help?

My name is Fernando Jorge, writing from Uruguay. I am conducting historical research on William G. Lettsom, who lived in our country for many years. A London census from 1870 lists his residence as 2 Thurlow Place, Lower Norwood.

However, I have been unable to locate this street and would be most grateful if you could assist me in identifying its location in your neighbourhood. Alternatively, I would appreciate it if you could kindly direct me to someone who might be able to provide more information.
Click to expand...
 
I also found the Lambeth document.

Looking at NLS maps for the patch, Thurlow Place is marked, although looks more like it's marking a house or two rather than a road as such, on 1870s OS map here

Alternative single sheet here - not sure if it's marking the house on the east side of the road, or the row of houses on the west side - if there was a number 2, Thurlow Place, the row of houses on the west side is perhaps more likely.

Looks like one house from that era (now 242 Norwood Road) is a survivor (street view here) although this was about the middle of the row, so unlikely to have been number 2.

May well never have been an official street name. There were occasional 'tidying up' exercises carried out by London County Council / Post Office to reduce duplication and confusion, and there's a website that's fairly comprehensive with listing old / new names. But no mention of this Thurlow Place (the one that's listed in Newington is the one off Albany Road / East Street.)
 
Try the 1871 census, the 1931 or 2 list of streets and places in the administrative county of London, and the first edition of the 25" / 60" map - the list lists subsidiary names abolished. I'd also use a local directory, likely available in the Croydon? Archives. This may give an indication of where crossing streets fell tho for 1870 it's possible that it won't - later local directories being better than aulder ones. Drainage plans may also be useful for precisely locating it.
 
Puddy_Tat said:
I also found the Lambeth document.

Looking at NLS maps for the patch, Thurlow Place is marked, although looks more like it's marking a house or two rather than a road as such, on 1870s OS map here

Alternative single sheet here - not sure if it's marking the house on the east side of the road, or the row of houses on the west side - if there was a number 2, Thurlow Place, the row of houses on the west side is perhaps more likely.
Click to expand...

So this area basically. One of the cribs on the left most likely?

1737553814569.png
 
Thank you all; I am researching the places where a 19th-century figure, William Garrow Lettsom, lived upon his return to London. He mentions two addresses in his letters: first 2 Thurlow Place and later 142 Norwood Road. I wonder if these are the same place, following a change in naming? They are certainly in the same neighbourhood. The 1880 Census lists him at 2 Thurlow Place, along with several other individuals at the same address, which intrigues me as his letters suggest he lived alone. Perhaps he lived at Thurlow Lodge? Were these rental houses? Many thanks in advance.
 
FernandoJorge said:
Thank you all; I am researching the places where a 19th-century figure, William Garrow Lettsom, lived upon his return to London. He mentions two addresses in his letters: first 2 Thurlow Place and later 142 Norwood Road. I wonder if these are the same place, following a change in naming? They are certainly in the same neighbourhood. The 1880 Census lists him at 2 Thurlow Place, along with several other individuals at the same address, which intrigues me as his letters suggest he lived alone. Perhaps he lived at Thurlow Lodge? Were these rental houses? Many thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

142 Norwood Road seems to be just north of Tulse Hill railway station next to what is now the Tulse Hill Hotel.

Thurlow Place seems to have been to the south of Tulse Hill station approximately where Anytime Fitness and Norwood Dental Clinic are. It's about a 6 minute walk according to Google Maps. It's not impossible it could be the same place but I'm guessing he just moved a short walk down the road.

1737561452934.png
 
The census listed him as well as many others at 2 Thurstow Place. Could it be the lodge?
He was a person in a good economic position. Does it make sense that he stayed in the neighborhood and in a pension before moving to 142 Norwood Road?
Thanks for your time!

1737562340399.png
1737562369079.png
 
FernandoJorge said:
Thank you all; I am researching the places where a 19th-century figure, William Garrow Lettsom, lived upon his return to London. He mentions two addresses in his letters: first 2 Thurlow Place and later 142 Norwood Road. I wonder if these are the same place, following a change in naming? They are certainly in the same neighbourhood. The 1880 Census lists him at 2 Thurlow Place, along with several other individuals at the same address, which intrigues me as his letters suggest he lived alone. Perhaps he lived at Thurlow Lodge? Were these rental houses? Many thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
Re rental, you might want to look at land tax records - if someone has an ancestry sub, they might be able to look them up for you. The other people may be servants
 
FernandoJorge said:
Thank you all; I am researching the places where a 19th-century figure, William Garrow Lettsom, lived upon his return to London. He mentions two addresses in his letters: first 2 Thurlow Place and later 142 Norwood Road. I wonder if these are the same place, following a change in naming? They are certainly in the same neighbourhood. The 1880 Census lists him at 2 Thurlow Place, along with several other individuals at the same address, which intrigues me as his letters suggest he lived alone. Perhaps he lived at Thurlow Lodge? Were these rental houses? Many thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
Out of interest, could you tell us a little about William, what he did in Uruguay and what makes him interesting for you please? Many thanks
 
He was as diplomat who served as Consul General in Uruguay for ten years (1859-1869) but he was also a naturalist, interested in many sciences. He helped in the development of botany, astronomy and microscopy in my country, but that was forgotten. I have been rebuilding his history for 20 years and now I'm ready to put it in a book :) You can find a nice article (not mine) here: https://www.fownc.org/pdf/newsletter90.pdf
 
FernandoJorge said:
Diplomat, retired on a pension.
The Tulse Hill tavern is dated back to 1840.
I bet he drank more than one ale in there!!
Click to expand...
I wrote a piece about the Tulse Hill Hotel (which i think is the same place)
www.brixtonbuzz.com

A short illustrated history of the Tulse Hill Hotel in Tulse Hill, SE24

Located on Norwood Road close to the station, the Tulse Hill Hotel (also known as the Tulse Hill Tavern) has been serving customers since 1840, and now operates as a successful pub, restaurant and…
www.brixtonbuzz.com www.brixtonbuzz.com
 
142 Norwood Road was (in 1896) in the block on the west side of Norwood Road, between Leigham Lane (now Leigham Vale) and York Road (now York Hill) so not at all impossible that it's the same place as had previously been Thurlow Place.

(extract from 1896 London Suburbs Directory for west side of Norwood Road)


1737568838557.png

The absence of entries between 142 and York Road doesn't prove it was on the corner - 144 is missing, and listing of private householders is variable. 142 looks as though it may (by then) have been three separate residences.

And of course the whole lot has been re-numbered at some point since then (1950s OS maps show the current numbers in the 240-ish range)

I haven't got access to a directory for the 1880s.
 
Puddy_Tat said:
142 Norwood Road was (in 1896) in the block on the west side of Norwood Road, between Leigham Lane (now Leigham Vale) and York Road (now York Hill) so not at all impossible that it's the same place as had previously been Thurlow Place.

(extract from 1896 London Suburbs Directory for west side of Norwood Road)


View attachment 460675

The absence of entries between 142 and York Road doesn't prove it was on the corner - 144 is missing, and listing of private householders is variable. 142 looks as though it may (by then) have been three separate residences.

And of course the whole lot has been re-numbered at some point since then (1950s OS maps show the current numbers in the 240-ish range)

I haven't got access to a directory for the 1880s.
Click to expand...
The York ldg suggests 142 was on the corner, with an entrance on York road
 
I have one more: the article from the Friends of the Norwood Cementery says that he was buried at Norwood (grave 22,115, square 102)
Could someone help me pin out the place on the map?
Maybe I could have an image from Google street view!

1737572010151.png
 
FernandoJorge said:
I have one more: the article from the Friends of the Norwood Cementery says that he was buried at Norwood (grave 22,115, square 102)
Could someone help me pin out the place on the map?
Maybe I could have an image from Google street view!

View attachment 460688
Click to expand...
It's really difficult locating graves as even with a grave number and approximate location you don't know how the stone's aged, if it's overgrown or if its still there. You'll need someone to scout it out
 
Puddy_Tat said:
142 Norwood Road was (in 1896) in the block on the west side of Norwood Road, between Leigham Lane (now Leigham Vale) and York Road (now York Hill) so not at all impossible that it's the same place as had previously been Thurlow Place.

(extract from 1896 London Suburbs Directory for west side of Norwood Road)


View attachment 460675

The absence of entries between 142 and York Road doesn't prove it was on the corner - 144 is missing, and listing of private householders is variable. 142 looks as though it may (by then) have been three separate residences.

And of course the whole lot has been re-numbered at some point since then (1950s OS maps show the current numbers in the 240-ish range)

I haven't got access to a directory for the 1880s.
Click to expand...
In that case, if there were 3 separate residences under the number 142, that could explain the census:

William Lettsom - One residence
Hunt family - 2nd residence
Nash/Hilick - 3rd residence

I really appreciate your help.
It is very difficult for me to picture the time and place :)


1737572232585.png
 
FernandoJorge said:
In that case, if there were 3 separate residences under the number 142, that could explain the census:

William Lettsom - One residence
Hunt family - 2nd residence
Nash/Hilick - 3rd residence

I really appreciate your help.
It is very difficult for me to picture the time and place :)


View attachment 460690
Click to expand...
Or it could be that the Hunt family ran a boarding house. The Hillick girls, William and Jane Nash were all lodgers.
 
It's also interesting that what looks like they were reasonably big houses (if the map and existing 242 are anything to go by) had started to become business premises by 1896. Having a railway built at the end of the garden can't have helped...
 
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