What kind of night time economy do you want Brixton to have?

[teuchter]

Is the night time economy a vital part of Brixton's essence and character?

Do you want it to be alcohol-led as it has been for many years?

Do you want it to be foodie-led instead?

Do you want it to have less of a night-time economy?

A lot of desires I see expressed here at the moment seem to be in conflict with one another. There's seems to be a lot of support for protecting certain alchohol based late night places like the 414. On the other hand we have the "sleepless Brixton" campaign. There was for a while an objection to things turning more foodie-oriented; now there are objections to some of the same food-based places morphing into club type operations at certain times.

Underneath it all there's perhaps a feeling that it's more about the type of people that are attracted and a perception that the drunken late night revellers of today are not as well behaved as those of ten years ago. Or is it simply that there are too many of them?

Are there more of them? Are they less well behaved?

Should certain venues be allowed to continue to operate because they don't attract the wrong type of people or should it be about things like level of soundproofing?

What would a coherent planning/licencing policy for Brixton's nightlife look like, in your view?

 

[Pickman's model]

What would a coherent planning/licencing policy for Brixton's nightlife look like, in your view?

about fifty pages of a4, bound

 

[bimble]

I started trying to write a reasoned response to this earlier but had to stop and consider that maybe I'm just too old and too (often) sober.
I mostly avoid central brixton on the weekend evenings now, have done for a couple of years because I find the atmosphere alienating and ugly. Maybe its a bit like being a resident of Bratislava or one of those other places that are popular for stag weekend type tourism. Not much fun for residents who have to dodge the pee and puke on Sunday morning but once a place is established as a destination for big nights out it's a sort of self-perpetuating snowball effect isn't it because another cocktail bar will always make higher profit margins (than the greengrocers or whatever) and so be able to pay the new higher rents.

 

[HelloNBD]

The biggest issue is the lack of toilets. This has been raised time and time again but it is not being addressed. It's horrible walking down the streets smelling like piss.

I pulled up a bloke the other night for weeing in someone's doorway and he shouted 'you want some of this?!' while waving his wanger at me. We've even caught people pooing in our front garden.

This isn't just the visitors to the area - it's often local boozers that have been drinking in the area for years. Adding more late night venues just adds to the problem.

 

[ricbake]

Lambeth have closed most of the public toilets because they were incapable of managing and maintaining them. There is the one on Popes Road but I don't think its open in the evening, it is probably a requirement of the open air market.

There is a plastic pissoir they put out on Stockwell Ave over the weekends but it doesn't flush in any way and essentially is just somewhere for blokes to piss into a drain in the middle of the public highway. I believe there is some form of agreement for some of the chain restaurants to allow the general public to use their loos.
It is completely inadequate and you would have thought the expansion of the "Night Time Economy" over the past few years could have financed some form of provision.

All that happens is, partly funded by Brixton Bid, they hose the worst area down with disinfectant most mornings...

 

[Tolpuddle]

about fifty pages of a4, bound

Well, a few years ago Lambeth commissioned a rather expensive report on the night time economy that never saw the light of day, perhaps time to shine a light now?

 

[teuchter]

Well, a few years ago Lambeth commissioned a rather expensive report on the night time economy that never saw the light of day, perhaps time to shine a light now?

Thanks for posting. Interesting to compare the comments for Clapham and Brixton. This is written in 2013

Clapham
• Clapham is now the alcohol-led centre of Lambeth and a large
part of its local economy is dependent on the late night-time economy,
attracting visitors from outer London, Surrey and Kent.
• However, its composition after dark is skewed excessively towards late
night drinking, music and dancing. This has brought significant rises
in crime and health harms and causes distress to many local
residents. Clapham after dark is reminiscent of a city centre and has
exceeded the ‘carrying capacity’ of what is only a district centre.
• Exacerbating this is the absence of the late night infrastructure
consistent with the good practice in managing a dense ‘destination’
night-time economy (e.g. taxi marshalling, early intervention policing).
This has started to change with the arrival of a new night-time
economy manager, a position we recommend is retained.
• Clapham requires serious attention. It needs a plan to retain some
of its later evening vibrancy while refocusing on its natural function
as an 18 (not 24) hour district centre; a place primarily offering
local services such as shops, restaurants, a handful of pubs and bars
and the cinema to residents with a more modest number of night time
visitors. This is particularly important for local older generations and
families who are currently almost entirely absent after dark.

Brixton
• Brixton has long been a vibrant but edgy centre both day and night. It
possesses arguably the leading national popular music venue (O2
Academy) and a number of other unique attractions but its nighttime
economy is relatively low in value.
• Recent changes in composition show Brixton is now appealing
more to quality-conscious visitors and locals and there is
substantial potential for growth and change in Brixton. This is positive,
provided Brixton can retain its distinctive character.
• Like Clapham, Brixton’s late night management infrastructure
needs to be raised to meet best practice and it must market its
after dark offer more effectively.

 

[Tolpuddle]

Thanks for posting. Interesting to compare the comments for Clapham and Brixton. This is written in 2013

Can't recall what it cost but it was a big project, this document was never published because (I'm told) the politicians didn't like it, thinking it white centric & not reflecting any minority interests.

With Jack Hopkins now delivering planning advice & also working for the biggest UK advocate of the NTE I can't help thinking that business interests will have the upper hand.

 

[Pickman's model]

Can't recall what it cost but it was a big project, this document was never published because (I'm told) the politicians didn't like it, thinking it white centric & not reflecting any minority interests.

With Jack Hopkins now delivering planning advice & also working for the biggest UK advocate of the NTE I can't help thinking that business interests will have the upper hand.

tbh i thought it likely that in a night time economy businesses would always have the upper hand

 

[trabuquera]

I honestly don't care what sort of a night time economy it is, as long as it's disposing of its own waste and the waste generated by its customers - or paying enough tax for the council to do so. I don't care either if it's drinking or clubbing or live music or whatever, as long as it's paying enough tax to finance some noise-nuisance officers who might actually be awake and available for work when noise is actually being made.

 

[Winot]

I honestly don't care what sort of a night time economy it is, as long as it's disposing of its own waste and the waste generated by its customers - or paying enough tax for the council to do so. I don't care either if it's drinking or clubbing or live music or whatever, as long as it's paying enough tax to finance some noise-nuisance officers who might actually be awake and available for work when noise is actually being made.

This is pretty much my view.

Verbose joint statement from Sleepless in Brixton/Briston BID that doesn't say very much:

Joint Statement from Brixton BID and Sleepless Brixton

 

[friendofdorothy]

I'd occasionally like some night life I'm allowed in to (ie being able to drink after midnight without having ID)

And I'd like to be able to walk home home late or go to work early with having to wade through hoards of out-of-it-young-people, piss, vomit and litter.

And, I'd like the cost of cleaning that up not to be added to my council tax.

 

[Winot]

And, I'd like the cost of cleaning that up not to be added to my council tax.

I think this is a dodgy area to go down - soon you get people claiming they shouldn't pay for schools because they don't have kids or shouldn't pay for hospitals because they have private health insurance. However I see no reason why the council shouldn't raise extra money via business rates levied on the pubs and bars.

 

[alex_]

I think this is a dodgy area to go down - soon you get people claiming they shouldn't pay for schools because they don't have kids or shouldn't pay for hospitals because they have private health insurance. However I see no reason why the council shouldn't raise extra money via business rates levied on the pubs and bars.

It’s not the same at all - we have social health care and education because other people’s kids being educated and not spreading plague is a public good.

The council paying to hose piss off the street so bar owners in Brixton can make more cash benefits me in no way other than minimising the piss smell.

Taking away a bar owners license doesn’t affect the public in the slightest.

Alex

 

[Winot]

It’s not the same at all - we have social health care and education because other people’s kids being educated and not spreading plague is a public good.

The council paying to hose piss off the street so bar owners in Brixton can make more cash benefits me in no way other than minimising the piss smell.

Taking away a bar owners license doesn’t affect the public in the slightest.

Alex

Rubbish! (literally and metaphorically).

 

[trabuquera]

exactly - rubbish (and sewage) are public health matters and affect everyone, no matter how much you participate in the 'night time economy' or not.

 

[alex_]

exactly - rubbish (and sewage) are public health matters and affect everyone, no matter how much you participate in the 'night time economy' or not.

You can eliminate bar owners rubbish in other ways than taking it away for them - make rubbish disposal a condition of their license.

Alex

 

[Twattor]

You can eliminate bar owners rubbish in other ways than taking it away for them - make rubbish disposal a condition of their license.

Alex

Businesses seldom get their commercial refuse collected by the council - they have to arrange to have their refuse collected separately and pay for it themselves.

Litter generated by people using their services (such as the ubiquitous chicken boxes you see everywhere) is more tricky. Obviously the council's litter pickers should be picking it up when they see it, but I don't see why a levy against this shouldn't be included in their rates.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I think this is a dodgy area to go down - soon you get people claiming they shouldn't pay for schools because they don't have kids or shouldn't pay for hospitals because they have private health insurance. However I see no reason why the council shouldn't raise extra money via business rates levied on the pubs and bars.

Ffs, hang on. I already happily pay rates for all sorts of things in the community and would be prepared to pay more if it was to be spent on social care and not closing libraries - but are you saying it is my resposibility to chip in for hosing down all the extra piss and vomit that all the extra 'night time economy' is causing?

As you say yourself extra levy on bars etc. It shouldn't it be paid for by businesses who are selling things in the day time and by the council tax of everyone.

 

[Winot]

Ffs, hang on. I already happily pay rates for all sorts of things in the community and would be prepared to pay more if it was to be spent on social care and not closing libraries - but are you saying it is my resposibility to chip in for hosing down all the extra piss and vomit that all the extra 'night time economy' is causing?

As you say yourself extra levy on bars etc. It shouldn't it be paid for by businesses who are selling things in the day time and by the council tax of everyone.

We all chip in. That's how taxation works. I'm happy with an extra levy though.

 

[jimbarkanoodle]

Although we are very lucky to have venues such as The Jamm, 414, Electric, The Academy, Hootanannys, and Phonox putting on good nights with credible DJ's and acts, its a big crap that lots of Brixton venues just play cheese music to the drunken masses on a Friday and Saturday night. Im talking about pubs like the POW, Market House, Dogstar, Effra Social, Barrio etc who cram them in and spit them out at 3am with bellys full of beer and tequila.

I guess not everyone wants to listen to hard trance at the 414 or a drum and bass night at the Electric, but these mentioned venues playing shite are more suited to Clapham High Street, which is far worse than Brixton for vomiting, kebab munching, shouting and screaming 'revellers'.

 

[teuchter]

Although we are very lucky to have venues such as The Jamm, 414, Electric, The Academy, Hootanannys, and Phonox putting on good nights with credible DJ's and acts, its a big crap that lots of Brixton venues just play cheese music to the drunken masses on a Friday and Saturday night. Im talking about pubs like the POW, Market House, Dogstar, Effra Social, Barrio etc who cram them in and spit them out at 3am with bellys full of beer and tequila.

I guess not everyone wants to listen to hard trance at the 414 or a drum and bass night at the Electric, but these mentioned venues playing shite are more suited to Clapham High Street, which is far worse than Brixton for vomiting, kebab munching, shouting and screaming 'revellers'.

The question is how you create a situation where the sort of venues you want can thrive, whilst the ones you don't, don't.

Perhaps a committee could visit each place on a regular basis, awarding each with a score for the tastefulness of their music choice and then a "cheese music" levy could be applied proportionately?

 

[jimbarkanoodle]

To be honest it doesnt bother me that much, its no hassle to avoid the venues playing music i dont like full of drunk people wanting to leer over each other and get as pissed as possible (and give the area around Mcdonalds a wide berth at kicking out time), but i suspect the type of clientele people are moaning about puking in the streets and shouting down the road mostly come from having had a night out at such venues.

People on pills coming out of the Electric or wherever else tend to shuffle off home happy and eager to get home to chill out a bit.

 

[editor]

Although we are very lucky to have venues such as The Jamm, 414, Electric, The Academy, Hootanannys, and Phonox putting on good nights with credible DJ's and acts, its a big crap that lots of Brixton venues just play cheese music to the drunken masses on a Friday and Saturday night. Im talking about pubs like the POW, Market House, Dogstar, Effra Social, Barrio etc who cram them in and spit them out at 3am with bellys full of beer and tequila.

I guess not everyone wants to listen to hard trance at the 414 or a drum and bass night at the Electric, but these mentioned venues playing shite are more suited to Clapham High Street, which is far worse than Brixton for vomiting, kebab munching, shouting and screaming 'revellers'.

I'll have you know that I play very little crappy cheese on my Dogstar and Market House nights. Some good cheese, natch, along with fine drum and bass, ska, soul, disco, hip hop and new wave. And splendid pop.

#affronted

 

[Gramsci]

Well, a few years ago Lambeth commissioned a rather expensive report on the night time economy that never saw the light of day, perhaps time to shine a light now?

Started looking at this. Don't understand why Clapham is treated differently to Brixton. There is no acknowledgement that Brixton has residential community. Unlike Clapham where older people's and families needs are taken into account.

Clapham also has a night time economy manager. Brixton does not.

Wonder if the reason that this report never saw light of day is that it's calling for proper management plans to be put into place for the night time economy.

The report has good summary of upsides and downsides of night time economy. I don't see any of the downsides being dealt with in Brixton.

Looks to me that the good it may have for the local economy may be cancelled out by increase in social costs. Policing, A&E, street cleaning, extra toilets for example.

So in economic monetary terms its neither good or bad for society. But it's not a great way to have economic growth.

And there are social costs that resist quantification like loss in quality of life for existing long term residents as the area of night time economy increases in a town centre. As has happened to those living in market area. I don't think increase in number of jobs in late night economy justifies this.

 

[teuchter]

Brixton has a decades long history as a focus of night time entertainment, which is where it differs from Clapham High St. While things may have ramped up a bit recently, it's not like residents of a previously quiet neighbourhood have suddenly had the problems associated with a late night economy foisted upon them.

 

[Gramsci]

Brixton has a decades long history as a focus of night time entertainment, which is where it differs from Clapham High St. While things may have ramped up a bit recently, it's not like residents of a previously quiet neighbourhood have suddenly had the problems associated with a late night economy foisted upon them.

Have you lived in central Brixton or Clapham?

In my time in central Brixton I saw large increase in late night venues.

 

[shakespearegirl]

I used to live just off Clapham high street about 18 years ago. In that year it tipped from lively going out street to out of town party destination. In a year it became unbearable - the increase in noise and antisocial behaviour was astronomic

 

[snadge]

Sounds like a Daily Mail Headline, Night time economy LOL.

Hey, suck it up, it's London.

 

[snadge]

Although we are very lucky to have venues such as The Jamm, 414, Electric, The Academy, Hootanannys, and Phonox putting on good nights with credible DJ's and acts, its a big crap that lots of Brixton venues just play cheese music to the drunken masses on a Friday and Saturday night. Im talking about pubs like the POW, Market House, Dogstar, Effra Social, Barrio etc who cram them in and spit them out at 3am with bellys full of beer and tequila.

I guess not everyone wants to listen to hard trance at the 414 or a drum and bass night at the Electric, but these mentioned venues playing shite are more suited to Clapham High Street, which is far worse than Brixton for vomiting, kebab munching, shouting and screaming 'revellers'.

I would class 'hard trance' and 'drum and base' as shite myself, fucking nothing more annoying than drum and base when you're trying to kip.

Seems some people think this debate is about what type of noise pollution is acceptable 24/7.