Watchmen

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

For instance, I thought V for Vendetta was wicked, yet the general noises were saying it was shit.

Yes it was indeed shit.

Really shit in fact.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I don't think he was in the film, just the comic. In the book he's there with Janey just before Jon gets vaporised, but in the film I think it was just Wally.

How hard would it have been to have included the fact that he was fixing whatshernames watch? It ties the fact that he puts himself together again and ties the other scenes of the past together quite nicely (watch breaking on a trip to the fair, excuse to meet again) and was a greater shock as his death would not have occurred had he never met her/had a clockmaker dad/gone to the fair etc etc etc.

 

[DexterTCN]

Yes it was indeed shit.

Really shit in fact.

It has 8.2/10 on IMDB and is 169th in the top 250 films...as voted by the public.

When Evey gets up from underneath the desk during V's pirate broadcast, there is a copy of "Watchmen", another comic by Alan Moore on the desk in front of her.

 

[Gmart]

Yes it was indeed shit.

Really shit in fact.

Nope, it was great! The soliloquies by V were perfect:

Good evening, London. Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of every day routine- the security of the familiar, the tranquility of repetition. I enjoy them as much as any bloke. But in the spirit of commemoration, thereby those important events of the past usually associated with someone's death or the end of some awful bloody struggle, a celebration of a nice holiday, I thought we could mark this November the 5th, a day that is sadly no longer remembered, by taking some time out of our daily lives to sit down and have a little chat. There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent. Last night I sought to end that silence. Last night I destroyed the Old Bailey, to remind this country of what it has forgotten. More than four hundred years ago a great citizen wished to embed the fifth of November forever in our memory. His hope was to remind the world that fairness, justice, and freedom are more than words, they are perspectives. So if you've seen nothing, if the crimes of this government remain unknown to you then I would suggest you allow the fifth of November to pass unmarked. But if you see what I see, if you feel as I feel, and if you would seek as I seek, then I ask you to stand beside me one year from tonight, outside the gates of Parliament, and together we shall give them a fifth of November that shall never, ever be forgot.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Nah, it was bollocks.

 

[andy2002]

I disagree - the film was TOO close to the original, as some have said here already.

Yes, so close that they completely changed the ending and its aftermath.

 

[Gmart]

Yes, so close that they completely changed the ending and its aftermath.

Err the diary still got to the paper and was used. And Rorschach got killed so that he wouldn't give away the plot.

Have I forgotten anything?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Err the diary still got to the paper and was used. And Rorschach got killed so that he wouldn't give away the plot.

Have I forgotten anything?

Just pick something from the crank file.

Maybe it did maybe it didn't. The comic book seems to suggest it was left hanging as to if the journal was picked up or discarded. The film made it look a much more like he was going for the journal.

 

[Gmart]

Just pick something from the crank file.

Maybe it did maybe it didn't. The comic book seems to suggest it was left hanging as to if the journal was picked up or discarded. The film made it look a much more like he was going for the journal.

I disagree - he was reaching for the pile in both. Either way it existed and thus the chance of discovery. Tho also the probability that it would be dismissed as the ravings of a fool.

The existence of an external threat causing a planet to pull together is all very well, and the message to work together is a fine one, but also human nature with all its contradiction would still exist.

Killing for the sake of one's own Utopia - tempting but ultimately useless. People have to be persuaded, not manipulated by authoritarianism.

 

[andy2002]

Err the diary still got to the paper and was used. And Rorschach got killed so that he wouldn't give away the plot.

Have I forgotten anything?

Spoiler

All the squid stuff and the lack of any bodies in New York, Night Owl witnessing Rorshach's death and then attacking Ozymandias (in the comic he just slopes off for a shag with Lawrie), Dr Manhattan unsettling Ozymandias in their final discussion with the words: "Nothing ever ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends," which leads perfectly into the final scene in the New Frontiersman's office.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

The existence of an external threat causing a planet to pull together is all very well, and the message to work together is a fine one, but also human nature with all its contradiction would still exist.
:

I don't think this works in the film because they know all about Dr Manhattan anyway and can't 'pull together' do do anything to stop him.

In the book the psychic image, tells pretty much every 'individual' on the planet to get their shit together.

 

[Azrael]

Nope, it was great! The soliloquies by V were perfect:

It's okay, but the message from the comic is turned on its head. The V For Vendetta film gives us "blame the leaders" instead of "blame yourselves". The "look in the mirror" bit of the movie speech is windowdressing: unlike the film, the comic makes no excuses for popular complicity:-

The Management is terrible! ... But who elected them? It was you! ... While I'll admit that anyone can make a mistake once, to go on making the same lethal errors century after century seems to me nothing short of deliberate. You have encouraged these malicious incompetents, who have made your working life a shambles. You have accepted without question their senseless orders. ... You could have stopped them. All you had to say was "No". You have no spine. You have no pride.

The film was well made, pacy, and had some good performances, but I agree with Alan Moore when he said it was a parable of Bush America the producers were too scared to set in their own country. American tropes like the frothing televangalist were projected onto England, and padded out with cliches and sterotypes.

Not that V For Vendetta's that bad an action movie -- it isn't -- but the comic is so much better. And that's from someone who think the comic is heavily flawed.

Put it this way: the comicbook is about the clash between the extremes of anarchy and fascism. It puts over both philosophies in clear terms and lets them face off. It's not entirely successful, but it's a fascinating idea. The film features the word "anarchy" once, and it's ... not in its political sense. But then the closest Hollywood will get to making a two hour advert for anarchism is Fight Club.

Whatever its flaws, the Watchmen movie succeeds in getting most ideas from the comic over to the screen. V For Vendetta doesn't.

 

[Azrael]

BTW, the complete speech from the comic is here.

 

[Stigmata]

Just saw the film- as someone who hasn't read the graphic novel I found it challenging but not impossible to follow. I liked it, actually. The female superhero and the one who looks like Niles Crane were forgettable but the others were anything but.

I also liked the alternate history type stuff. Especially the brief cameo by the Village People.

 

[100% masahiko]

Well...the film has got me reading Watchmen.
I think when I first attempted to read it, I should have started from Issue 1.

 

[The Octagon]

Saw it last night -

Enjoyed it immensely, think it was probably the best one-off feature length adaptation of the GN that could have been produced (as opposed to something like an HBO mini-series), at times it was exactly how I pictured it in my head when reading the GN years ago.

Majority of the performances were spot on, particularly Jeffrey Dean Morgan and Jackie Earle Haley, whilst Patrick Wilson and Billy Crudup were also great (although I thought Dan could have done with a couple more pounds). The only weak (er) link was Matthew Goode, who just didn't sit right as Veidt. Some of his stylistic touches were good (slipping between Germanic and US accent) and he definitely radiated cocky assurance, I just think he got the short straw when it came to trimming scenes (where was his proper backstory?).

Action sequences were well-shot and actually benefitted from Snyder's reliance on Slo-Mo, as it gave the scenes a more 'panel-like' feel. Nice to see they didn't hold back on the brutality to try and obtain a more profitable rating at cinemas (likewise on the nudity).

Also, I thought the revised ending actually worked well (compared to asking an audience to swallow genetically-engineered aliens and the sudden existence of psychics), it just lacked the smaller character beats (the Two Bernies, Joey, etc) that made the ending much more powerful emotionally in the book. Also would have preferred to see the moments after *********'s death stick closer to the book (Jon and Adrian talking, Dan and Laurie having a grief shag, etc).

I reckon the DVD will fix some of the above (inserting subplots and important character beats, such as Hollis' final scene and the two Bernies' interactions, not to mention Veidt's backgound being fleshed out).

All in all, pretty damn good, but not great (yet).

7.5/10

 

[Azrael]

Also, I thought the revised ending actually worked well (compared to asking an audience to swallow genetically-engineered aliens and the sudden existence of psychics), it just lacked the smaller character beats (the Two Bernies, Joey, etc) that made the ending much more powerful emotionally in the book.

I agree the ending had to be changed for the film (as it allowed Mr Snyder to cut the island backplot) but I prefer the comic's version. In the film Veidt claims his plan is a practical joke, but it isn't really: squiddy is absurd, but its consequences aren't. It's a fine deconstruction of a supervillain's Evil Plan.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Yes it was indeed shit.

Really shit in fact.

Yeah, but you tend to say everything is shit.

 

[andy2002]

Yeah, but you tend to say everything is shit.

In the case of the V adaptation he's absolutely right.

 

[belboid]

In the case of the V adaptation he's absolutely right.

no he's not. V works well as a film, even if it's not 'Moores' film (and frankly lots of V needed changing, lots of the comic was shit)

 

[andy2002]

no he's not. V works well as a film, even if it's not 'Moores' film (and frankly lots of V needed changing, lots of the comic was shit)

I never understand why people rate the film at all - it's just a wishy-washy, dumbed down version of the comic that's been turned into some kind of shitty action thriller. Plus, it has fucking Natalie Portman in it who is rubbish in everything she's ever been in.

The comic isn't perfect - not helped because much of it was originally written as five or six page chapters for Warrior - but I'll take Moore and Lloyd's version over some pile of Hollywood bollocks anyday.

 

[belboid]

I didn't say it was 'better', I said it works as a film. And it does. It has its faults, but so did the comic (not least that shitty speech Azrael quoted). It is a (very minor) fault of Moore's that (like many writers) he doesn't seem to realise that film is a different medium, and stories need to be told in different ways in it.

V is a decent, if not earth shattering movie, Watchmen might make the same category once one is over the initial disappointment.

 

[andy2002]

Fair enough, I just don't see the point of adapting something and making it substantially less interesting than the original work. For me, V and Watchmen are both guilty of that, although, as I've said, I may have enjoyed them a lot more had I never read the original stories.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Yeah, but you tend to say everything is shit.

Maybe, but V was more shit than most other shit things. Yeah it looked nice but it was a pitiful film in almost every other respect.

 

[kyser_soze]

I found that V, like many other comic adaptations, actually shows up the limitations of graphic novel-type storytelling in terms of plot and character development. Characters that seem solid in a comic come over in film as being one dimensional cyphers, or little more than archetypes. I think one of the reasons for this is that comics allow, and many writers rely on, character's internal monologues (thought bubbles) to develop character, and plots that seem well built on paper come over in film as stories aimed at males of varying stages of maturity - or in the case of much of Frank Miller's stuff, males of all ages stuck at 15 years old.

V is a decent, if not earth shattering movie, Watchmen might make the same category once one is over the initial disappointment.

Watchmen is a way better movie than V could ever hope to be IMO.

 

[Azrael]

I think one of the reasons for this is that comics allow, and many writers rely on, character's internal monologues (thought bubbles) to develop character, and plots that seem well built on paper come over in film as stories aimed at males of varying stages of maturity - or in the case of much of Frank Miller's stuff, males of all ages stuck at 15 years old.

Neither V For Vendetta nor Watchmen use thought balloons. Watchmen has Rorschach's journal, but lots of films use similar narrative devices, and I don't recall V having any special conduit for internal monologues. (Will have to check my copy.)

Rorschach's character is defined in jailhouse interviews with Dr Long, which could be transferred to the screen (and they were, but only partially).

A bigger problem with the Watchmen comic is the chapter structure, which is hardly a problem limited to graphic novels. The comicbook uses different chapters to analyse different characters (from memory, CII for the Comedian, CIV for Dr Manhattan, CVI for Rorschach, CVII for Dan and Laurie) but this approach doesn't work nearly so well in a film.

 

[kyser_soze]

I was talking more generally about the structure and writing in comics, be it captioned narrative (which while you can use the VO in a film, anyone who watched Casino knows that you can overdo it...plus it's lazy writng in film)

I still maintain that Watchmen the movie is

a. Better than V, which fails as a film AND adaptation

b. a good movie in it's own right, irrespective of it's faithfulness, or otherwise, to the source material.

c. Has a better ending - psychics and invading aliens...

 

[Sadken]

I was talking more generally about the structure and writing in comics, be it captioned narrative (which while you can use the VO in a film, anyone who watched Casino knows that you can overdo it...plus it's lazy writng in film)

I still maintain that Watchmen the movie is

a. Better than V, which fails as a film AND adaptation

b. a good movie in it's own right, irrespective of it's faithfulness, or otherwise, to the source material.

c. Has a better ending - psychics and invading aliens...

I've now read V and I still like the film a lot, although had I come the other way round then I would probably dislike quite a lot because clearly the original ending etc is far superior and the darkness - oh, the darkness - should've been retained.

 

[Azrael]

I still maintain that Watchmen the movie is

a. Better than V, which fails as a film AND adaptation

b. a good movie in it's own right, irrespective of it's faithfulness, or otherwise, to the source material.

c. Has a better ending - psychics and invading aliens...

Agreed on points A & B. Still prefer squiddy, but think the change was necessary for the film and works well on screen.

 

[kyser_soze]

I should have added:

d. there isn't an arse in the world that could have sat through a full length version of the comic at the cinema, even tho Snyder makes it clear that's what he could've done. I'll be interested in seeing what gets added to the home release versions.