Wahaca make planning applications for the old Brady's /Railway Tavern pub on Atlantic Road, Brixton

[Rushy]

if i had the cash i'd move to Hampstead.

I'd spread my time between my beachside home in Barbados and chalet in StQuelquechose but I'd maintain a pad in Brixton to keep me grounded.

 

[innit]

A couple of summers ago they actually did bus people in to Brixton Village from East London.

Also, I expect half of Clapham will eat there, as per.

 

[Onket]

Also, I expect half of Clapham will eat there, as per.

Probably better to leave it boarded up & falling down, then.

 

[Rushy]

Perhaps because the building had such a special place in local people's hearts? That can happen you know.

Of course. It's just a shame the community idea did not stir people as much as the building did. The community use ideal seems to get raised as an option whenever plans are announced for a building. If the the community space idea was not wedded not specific buildings and went looking for a space then it might have a better chance of being realised.

 

[el-ahrairah]

i guess the point was that the community wanted that building, lambeth would rather have left it to rot to sell off cheap sometime than let people use it. co-operative, see.

 

[Rushy]

i guess the point was that the community wanted that building, lambeth would rather have left it to rot to sell off cheap sometime than let people use it. co-operative, see.

I don't disagree that Lambeth fucked up by abandoning phase 2 or 3 of the town centre redevelopment for which Bradys was CP'd and then leaving it closed up. But I also think any argument for having any prime space would be much stronger if the "community use" strategies did not live and die with individual buildings.

 

[editor]

Of course. It's just a shame the community idea did not stir people as much as the building did.

I disagree. There was an awful lot of effort that went into the community bid and a lot of people were behind the idea. A site containing detailed plans was published and they even got Prince Charles down. Had Lambeth decided to support it rather than change their mind every minute, then I feel the pub could easily have ended up as a useful community resource - or at least reopened open as a pub (read the other thread to see how Lambeth went for the quick buck on that score).

 

[Rushy]

I disagree. There was an awful lot of effort that went into the community bid and a lot of people were behind the idea. A site containing detailed plans was published and they even got Prince Charles down. Had Lambeth decided to support it rather than change their mind every minute, then I feel the pub could easily have ended up as a useful community resource - or at least reopened open as a pub (read the other thread to see how Lambeth went for the quick buck on that score).

I did not suggest that people didn't put lots of effort in. But as far as I am aware all these plans died with that building being sold. I can appreciate that it would have been a great (if expensive to maintain) location but why was it the only spot?

 

[editor]

I did not suggest that people didn't put lots of effort in. But as far as I am aware all these plans died with that building being sold. I can appreciate that it would have been a great (if expensive to maintain) location but why was it the only spot?

I guess they felt - like me - that such a distinctive building with such long associations with music and Brixton life was the right place for it. Right in the heart of Brixton.

Sometimes buildings can have that quality and trying to recreate what made them so special elsewhere is unlikely to work. Happens to football grounds too, for example.

 

[Rushy]

I guess they felt - like me - that such a distinctive building with such long associations with music and Brixton life was the right place for it. Right in the heart of Brixton.

Sometimes buildings can have that quality and trying to recreate what made them so special elsewhere is unlikely to work. Happens to football grounds too, for example.

I agree that it would have been a good place for it (apart from the expense of maintenance) but it does raise a question mark in my mind about the genuine demand for and will to develop a community facility if its existence is so very dependant on the history of one particular building and a small number of people who occupied it for a short period.

I don't know anything about football, I'm afraid.

 

[TruXta]

You're swerving the question Ed - why, in your opinion, would the community not rally behind a different building?

 

[editor]

You're swerving the question Ed - why, in your opinion, would the community not rally behind a different building?

No, I'm really not. The building was the entire focus of the campaign. It's where people wanted it to be. It's where all the history, heritage, memories and love was. It's where people imagined its future.

When the building was squatted they spent weeks and weeks clearing out a filthy sewer. The could have just found somewhere else to squat, but such was the pull of the building, they chose to put in the extra work to make Brady's come alive again.

I'm sorry if you can't see that, but that;s certainly how I felt about the place. Besides where else would it have gone?

 

[TruXta]

No, I'm really not. The building was the entire focus of the campaign. It's where people wanted it to be. It's where all the history, heritage, memories and love was. It's where people imagined its future.

When the building was squatted they spent weeks and weeks clearing out a filthy sewer. The could have just found somewhere else to squat, but such was the pull of the building, they chose to put in the extra work to make Brady's come alive again.

I'm sorry if you can't see that, but that;s certainly how I felt about the place. Besides where else would it have gone?

I can see that 100% and I truly empathise. However, it doesn't really answer the question (and allow me to clarify that I don't expect a final answer from you or any other individual - I'm interested in your opinion as someone who'd been part of it (or so I'm led to believe)). As Rushy has already said, there were other options, that might not have had the same pull and history, but that could nevertheless have served as a community centre.

 

[editor]

I agree that it would have been a good place for it (apart from the expense of maintenance) but it does raise a question mark in my mind about the genuine demand for and will to develop a community facility if its existence is so very dependant on the history of one particular building and a small number of people who occupied it for a short period.

Considering all the soul-destroying setbacks and the endless changes of mind from the council, I think they did a very good job of trying to get the building back into public use. Solid plans were researched and put into place, endless meetings with the council went on, local opinions canvassed and a decent amount of publicity was attracted (front cover of local papers, Prince Charles visit, TV etc).

Up until recently it looked like it was going to happen until the council suddenly decided to flog it off to a bunch of dodgy developers. I don't think that proves that there wasn't much community demand. I think it proves that the council were only interested in a quick buck and didn't give much of a fuck about all the work that had gone into trying to make it a useful community resource.

All this is documented in the original 26 page Brady's thread.

 

[editor]

I can see that 100% and I truly empathise. However, it doesn't really answer the question (and allow me to clarify that I don't expect a final answer from you or any other individual - I'm interested in your opinion as someone who'd been part of it (or so I'm led to believe)). As Rushy has already said, there were other options, that might not have had the same pull and history, but that could nevertheless have served as a community centre.

What other options were offered? I'm happy to be roved wrong here, but I didn't see the council proposing any other suitable central Brixton alternative properties.

 

[el-ahrairah]

I don't disagree that Lambeth fucked up by abandoning phase 2 or 3 of the town centre redevelopment for which Bradys was CP'd and then leaving it closed up. But I also think any argument for having any prime space would be much stronger if the "community use" strategies did not live and die with individual buildings.

i see what you mean, but with this one the stategy was inextricably linked to the building and its history.

 

[TruXta]

What other options were offered? I'm happy to be roved wrong here, but I didn't see the council proposing any other suitable central Brixton alternative properties.

I dunno that any were - I'm assuming that such existed/still exists, and that a community organisation could have shifted its focus onto acquiring a different building after it became clear that Brady's was a no-go. I'm really not trying to have a go at anyone, merely curious, like Rushy, why it seemed to be an all or nothing effort.

 

[innit]

@ onket

If you think beer in the Albert's expensive, etc.

 

[cuppa tee]

It's where all the history, heritage, memories and love was.

If one was a cynic one could easily imagine this might be a good enough reason for some people to want it gone, or at least
changed beyond recognition.

 

[Rushy]

I can't help feeling that the "community need" argument risks looking a bit flaky if it is tied inextricably to one property. I can see why it means so much to the people who squatted it for that relatively short period of time. It must have been great fun and very exciting all mucking in together with a common goal. But whilst their needs and the community needs clearly overlap, I don't see that broader community needs are quite so site specific.

The Prince of Wales Trust proposal did not suggest going back to the raw, angry and anarchic days of Bradys. They offered meeting rooms, work space, counselling rooms, free wifi beamed from the clock tower, a community cafe and performance space. Have these needs now gone?

 

[editor]

I dunno that any were - I'm assuming that such existed/still exists, and that a community organisation could have shifted its focus onto acquiring a different building after it became clear that Brady's was a no-go.

But that's exactly the problem. It only became clear that Brady's was a no go right at the very, very end of a very long and drawn out process where every indication deemed to suggest that the 'co-operative' council were going to back the community scheme.

 

[editor]

The Prince of Wales Trust proposal did not suggest going back to the raw, angry and anarchic days of Bradys.

FYI: nobody ever suggested that.

 

[Pickman's model]

The Prince of Wales Trust proposal did not suggest going back to the raw, angry and anarchic days of Bradys.

i think you mean 'the good old days'.

 

[Rushy]

FYI: nobody ever suggested that.

FYI: my post did not say that they did.

 

[TruXta]

But that's exactly the problem. It only became clear that Brady's was a no go right at the very, very end of a very long and drawn out process where every indication deemed to suggest that the 'co-operative' council were going to back the community scheme.

I can see how that might have deflated a lot of people. But as Rushy points out above maybe the aims of the group that tried to salvage Brady's didn't really overlap all that strongly with broader community needs? Seems to me that the goal of bringing the building back as a venue was as important as the more basic needs it would have/could have met (not that the former is necessarily opposed to the latter of course), and as such I think it's valid to ask questions such as have come about in this thread.

 

[editor]

I can see how that might have deflated a lot of people. But as Rushy points out above maybe the aims of the group that tried to salvage Brady's didn't really overlap all that strongly with broader community needs? Seems to me that the goal of bringing the building back as a venue was as important as the more basic needs it would have/could have met (not that the former is necessarily opposed to the latter of course), and as such I think it's valid to ask questions such as have come about in this thread.

I am of the opinion that is could have been a real community asset to Brixton and would have been very widely used. You may of course disagree, but neither of us will ever know for sure thanks to the council hastily flogging it off.

But did central Brixton need a community resource more than it needed another chain restaurant? Absolutely, in my book. You may of course disagree with that too.

 

[Onket]

@ onket

If you think beer in the Albert's expensive, etc.

I have never said the beer is expensive in the Albert, innit. It was claimed (on a flyer for a gig/night) that the Albert had a 'cheap bar'. It doesn't have a cheap bar, it has a normal priced bar. It was misadvertising and I quite rightly pointed it out. I never said it was expensive.

 

[Rushy]

I am of the opinion that is could have been a real community asset to Brixton and would have been very widely used. You may of course disagree, but neither of us will ever know for sure thanks to the council hastily flogging it off.

But did central Brixton need a community resource more than it needed another chain restaurant? Absolutely, in my book. You may of course disagree with that too.

I don't think TruXta disagreed with your first point.

The thing about chain restaurants is that they develop a concept and then look for a site.

 

[TruXta]

I am of the opinion that is could have been a real community asset to Brixton and would have been very widely used. You may of course disagree, but neither of us will ever know for sure thanks to the council hastily flogging it off.

But did central Brixton need a community resource more than it needed another chain restaurant? Absolutely, in my book. You may of course disagree with that too.

I don't think you quite get what I'm saying. I'm sure Brady's would've made a lovely community venue and have been widely used. And I'm not sure how you came to think I'm saying I'm happy for Wahaca or similar to get the place. The point I've made (Rushy really) was: since Brady's became a no-go, what stopped people from setting their sights on another place? Was there something about Brady's as a space that made it uniquely placed to meet the community needs? What other places could have been alternatives? Were these questions asked internally by the campaigners?

 

[editor]

The point I've made (Rushy really) was: since Brady's became a no-go, what stopped people from setting their sights on another place? Was there something about Brady's as a space that made it uniquely placed to meet the community needs? What other places could have been alternatives? Were these questions asked internally by the campaigners?

I've done my best to answer that, but perhaps el-ahrairah's earlier answer sums it up best when he explains that the campaigner's strategy was "inextricably linked to the building and its history."

There were no viable alternatives offered or suggested, neither would there seem to be much need to consider them when the council and other interested parties all seemed to be agreeing that Brady's would be the venue for the project.