Virgin pendolino trains - awful things

[Tom A]

Same here: they do the Hull-Doncaster stopping trains. They're horrible old sheds - noisy, hard-riding, draughty and uncomfortable. Unfortunately, I've not heard that there's any prospect of their being replaced any time soon. And no, they're not at all crashworthy. This is what happened when one missed a signal back in 1999, got onto the West Coast Main Line and was stuffed up the back at 50mph by a northbound express:

Winsford Rail Crash report (pdf)

It is that incident that drove home to me how frail the Pacers are. The carnage was very similar to the damage suffered by the trains involved in the Clapham Junction crash (the one that resulted in the phasing out of the Mk. 1s). Fortunately that Pacer was empty (otherwise they would have definitely have been many fatalities), but it just takes a fateful error or failure in safeguards to result in a bloodbath, and the press will be wondering why we hadn't gotten rid of them decades earlier. The potential is even greater now the Pacers really are past their projected operational lifespan, and many of them are in very poor condition, but are still expected to run rush-hour services crammed with commuters.

 

[WWWeed]

There was a fire on a Virgin pendolino train last Sunday which was kept pretty quiet:
http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/10547724.Train_passengers_evacuated_after_cab_fire/

 

[Bungle73]

There was a fire on a Virgin pendolino train last Sunday which was kept pretty quiet:
http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/10547724.Train_passengers_evacuated_after_cab_fire/

"Kept quiet" or just not widely reported because it was a relatively minor incident? Considering these trains have been in service for some time now with no problems.

 

[agricola]

Considering these trains have been in service for some time now with no problems.

 

[Bungle73]

So what problems have there been? And I'm talking about safety problems, not just some guy doesn't like the seats, as you well know.

 

[WWWeed]

"Kept quiet" or just not widely reported because it was a relatively minor incident? Considering these trains have been in service for some time now with no problems.

It is probably a bit of both, but until they actually tell us what happened we wont know.

 

[davesgcr]

Yes - they were cheap , saved the "social railway" in the tricky 1980's - but have probably outlived their welcome.....only a third of the lease cost of say a 156 per year , so "do the math" ....

I give them (or some of them) - another 5+ years ....

 

[agricola]

So what problems have there been? And I'm talking about safety problems, not just some guy doesn't like the seats, as you well know.

Well - there were software problems affecting the brakes, the toilets used to fumigate much of the nearby seating, and (though I only have personal experience of this on a Voyager) if the air conditioning fails on a hot day there is no way of preventing the affected coach and its occupants becoming very hot, very quickly. Add to that the well-deserved criticism of the seating, of the service, and of the cost, and I really fail to see how anyone can like the things.

 

[Tom A]

The other issue with Pacers is that they can't be modified to be DDA compliant. I'm hoping that a fair few of them will be sent on their long overdue trip to the scrapyard when the lines from Manc to Bolton and Liverpool get electrified.

 

[Roadkill]

Yes - they were cheap , saved the "social railway" in the tricky 1980's - but have probably outlived their welcome.....only a third of the lease cost of say a 156 per year , so "do the math" ....

I give them (or some of them) - another 5+ years ....

Are they really only a third?! No wonder so many operators seem so keen on the damn things!

Actually you're right: they made a lot of sense back in the 80s, but they're definitely past their sell-by date now.

 

[davesgcr]

Pacers are "cheap" because they have limited places to go - apart from the "nest" in the NW and Tyneside / West Yorks - nowhere much else to "live" - banned south of Exeter for example - not much use running along main lines , never been to Scotland (bar 1 or 2 trials) , and East Grinstead man would not like them. Soon to be forced out of the Valleys - yes , they are cheap - and of limited use / life expectancy.

 

[davesgcr]

It is that incident that drove home to me how frail the Pacers are. The carnage was very similar to the damage suffered by the trains involved in the Clapham Junction crash (the one that resulted in the phasing out of the Mk. 1s). Fortunately that Pacer was empty (otherwise they would have definitely have been many fatalities), but it just takes a fateful error or failure in safeguards to result in a bloodbath, and the press will be wondering why we hadn't gotten rid of them decades earlier. The potential is even greater now the Pacers really are past their projected operational lifespan, and many of them are in very poor condition, but are still expected to run rush-hour services crammed with commuters.

Hang on - there is now TPWS fitted (Train Protection Warning System) - which is much more reactive than the old BR "Automatic Warning System" - which has prevented many instances of trains running red signals and getting into trouble accordingly. Yes - the Pacers are a bit on the tinny side - but apart from this incident , and bearing in mind the relatively local nature of the work - the chances of a collision like this are worked out in the normal risk assesments that train operators and Network Rail abide to. Whilst Pacers will not go on for ever - the rest of the fleet operated in the UK has both crash worthiness and the signal protection systems.....

 

[agricola]

Pacers are "cheap" because they have limited places to go - apart from the "nest" in the NW and Tyneside / West Yorks - nowhere much else to "live" - banned south of Exeter for example - not much use running along main lines , never been to Scotland (bar 1 or 2 trials) , and East Grinstead man would not like them. Soon to be forced out of the Valleys - yes , they are cheap - and of limited use / life expectancy.

They arent even welcome in Iran, now.

 

[editor]

This guy makes some good points on the overall crapness of the Pendolino trains:
http://carlpurkins.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/comment-virgin-pendolino-tale-of-two.html

 

[bi0boy]

Pacers are "cheap" because they have limited places to go - apart from the "nest" in the NW and Tyneside / West Yorks - nowhere much else to "live" - banned south of Exeter for example - not much use running along main lines , never been to Scotland (bar 1 or 2 trials) , and East Grinstead man would not like them. Soon to be forced out of the Valleys - yes , they are cheap - and of limited use / life expectancy.

They don't even have them on the Severn Beach line any more.

 

[Tom A]

Hang on - there is now TPWS fitted (Train Protection Warning System) - which is much more reactive than the old BR "Automatic Warning System" - which has prevented many instances of trains running red signals and getting into trouble accordingly. Yes - the Pacers are a bit on the tinny side - but apart from this incident , and bearing in mind the relatively local nature of the work - the chances of a collision like this are worked out in the normal risk assesments that train operators and Network Rail abide to. Whilst Pacers will not go on for ever - the rest of the fleet operated in the UK has both crash worthiness and the signal protection systems.....

The Pacers still run on parts of the network where trains run to mainline speeds. TPWS (which is still a compromise because it was deemed that full ATP would be too costly per life saved - which speaks volumes about how people are valued in this society) may have had a dramatic impact on the number of fatal collisions, that's true, but incidents do happen, even a derailment with no other train involved has the potential to be very nasty. We got rid of Mark 1 rolling stock because of their poor crashworthiness, but the Pacers are pretty much on a par with them (if not worse considering they were derived from a 1970s road bus), and the government, TOCs and ROSCOs still seem to be in no rush to get rid of them.

Also I have heard it told that some other second generation DMUs are vulnerable to having the bodywork ripped from the chassis in a collision, I think it's the Class 155s and the 153s which were converted from them. One good thing about the privatisation-era trains, they are even more crashworthy than the ones built even during the twilight years of BR, which in turn are more crashworthy than the earlier trains.

 

[neonwilderness]

The Pacers still run on parts of the network where trains run to mainline speeds.

IIRC there has also been a few incidents of bits of the engine falling off in the last couple of years which doesn't exactly inspire confidence in them either

 

[Bungle73]

because it was deemed that full ATP would be too costly per life saved - which speaks volumes about how people are valued in this society)

Given that there is not a unlimited amount of money available for everything, decissions like that always have to be made: saftey v how much it will cost. That's reality.

 

[davesgcr]

They arent even welcome in Iran, now.

A good friend of mine stumbled on the ex West Yorkshire 141 sets when they were still in use - and the cabs still had a sticker inside , inviting train crew to phone 08x xxxx (old BR internal phone system) for help from the "phone a friend" fitters at the depot in the event (rare - I am very sure) , of mechanical problems. Tribute to them they worked in such differing climatic conditions to the area they were built for.

 

[existentialist]

Given that there is not a unlimited amount of money available for everything, decissions like that always have to be made: saftey v how much it will cost. That's reality.

True, but there are economies and there are economies. If your argument were taken to its logical conclusion, we'd be sitting on benches in coal trucks.

 

[davesgcr]

They don't even have them on the Severn Beach line any more.

I think the Cumbrian Coast was the first area where 14x were withdrawn due to "unsuitability" 0 followed by the Wolds line near Roadkill's parish. Their happy hunting grounds are being reduced slowly but surely ......who is up for the last run "outing" ?

 

[existentialist]

I think the Cumbrian Coast was the first area where 14x were withdrawn due to "unsuitability" 0 followed by the Wolds line near Roadkill's parish. Their happy hunting grounds are being reduced slowly but surely ......who is up for the last run "outing" ?

It might end up being round these parts - they seem to intersperse them with 158s.

 

[davesgcr]

It might end up being round these parts - they seem to intersperse them with 158s.

Northern have around 98 of the little beauties - given electrification of Liverpool - Manchester - Wigan via St Helens, Blackpool - Bolton - Manchester, Man Victoria to York via Huddersfield , - all by 2018 (ish) - the last redoubts will probably be a few lines around Leeds and / or some peak use into the Northern cities till the clock reaches 12.....looking forward to seeing them turned into static Greenhouses - the 143's should be the best for this .....

 

[Roadkill]

I think the Cumbrian Coast was the first area where 14x were withdrawn due to "unsuitability" 0 followed by the Wolds line near Roadkill's parish. Their happy hunting grounds are being reduced slowly but surely ......who is up for the last run "outing" ?

Yes! When they go it'll be a bit like when the last of the old 'Thumper' DMUs were finally withdrawn from the London-Uckfield services. They were way past their sell-by date and very unreliable, and everyone was rude about them; but the last few days they were in service still saw packed trains, stations lined with enthusiasts and little farewell parties.

 

[existentialist]

Yes! When they go it'll be a bit like when the last of the old 'Thumper' DMUs were finally withdrawn from the London-Uckfield services. They were way past their sell-by date and very unreliable, and everyone was rude about them; but the last few days they were in service still saw packed trains, stations lined with enthusiasts and little farewell parties.

Human nature, innit? We want what we can't have, and we miss what we've lost...

 

[Roadkill]

Human nature, innit? We want what we can't have, and we miss what we've lost...

Yup. Even if something's well outdated and unsatisfactory in service, people are still sorry to see it go. See the Routemaster bus for another example ... or indeed the steam locomotive back in the 1960s, although I did read a tale there about one engine driver who scandalised a group of mourning enthusiasts by jumping down from his cab, giving the engine a kick and saying, 'Well, that's the last you'll see of these cast iron bastards'!

 

[Tom A]

Northern have around 98 of the little beauties - given electrification of Liverpool - Manchester - Wigan via St Helens, Blackpool - Bolton - Manchester, Man Victoria to York via Huddersfield , - all by 2018 (ish) - the last redoubts will probably be a few lines around Leeds and / or some peak use into the Northern cities till the clock reaches 12.....looking forward to seeing them turned into static Greenhouses - the 143's should be the best for this .....

They may have one last hurrah on the lines out of Manchester which aren't up for electrification, such as Victoria to Leeds via Rochdale, Manchester to Liverpool via Eccles, Manchester to Southport, Manchester to Chester (be it via Altrincham or Warrington), and the Manchester to Sheffield stopping service.

I did read a tale there about one engine driver who scandalised a group of mourning enthusiasts by jumping down from his cab, giving the engine a kick and saying, 'Well, that's the last you'll see of these cast iron bastards'!

Railfans who are predominantly in to diesel and electric trains tend to affectionately refer to steam engines as 'kettles'.

 

[agricola]

Northern have around 98 of the little beauties - given electrification of Liverpool - Manchester - Wigan via St Helens, Blackpool - Bolton - Manchester, Man Victoria to York via Huddersfield , - all by 2018 (ish) - the last redoubts will probably be a few lines around Leeds and / or some peak use into the Northern cities till the clock reaches 12.....looking forward to seeing them turned into static Greenhouses - the 143's should be the best for this .....

Leeds to Morecambe has to be a candidate for being one of the last holdouts.

 

[Tom A]

Leeds to Morecambe has to be a candidate for being one of the last holdouts.

If not the full Leeds-Morecambe service, then definitely the Lancaster shuttle.

ETA: Also a lot of the local services around Newcastle could another place where Pacers make their last stand, e.g. Newcastle-Sunderland/Middlesborough, Newcastle-Morpeth, and Newcastle-Carlisle.

 

[davesgcr]

Off the 390 thread a bit aren't we ?

I know someone who is getting in the 142 mileage already - his story of a rough trip to Goole and an even rougher pub visit was entertaining.

Fact - when the gauge corner cracking problem was in - it did not affect Pacer routes - they are in effect "in traffic" rail grinders. Though on welded track and on bits where the rail joints have been welded up (think South Wales Valley) - the ride is not bad at all up to 60 mph.

It is just they look so bad ....