Unpaid overtime, any right to time off in lieu?

[AnnO'Neemus]

I've been doing a bit of overtime (recently found out that there used to be four support staff, but now there's just one, me).

I started the job last November, but didn't keep track of working hours to start with, although I always did at least my contracted hours. It was a new job, so I figured things were taking me a bit longer than my predecessor as I learned the ropes, and there were a few deadlines along the way that effectively meant I 'had to' work late to get things done to meet deadlines.

It seems that in the New Year I must've worked out that wasn't just an occasional thing, but it was a regular occurrence. Because on 10 January, I started logging my hours, my start and finish time, how long I took for lunch - I'm supposed to take an hour, but rarely do, because there's nearly always something that needs doing that day.

So far, in the past seven weeks, I've worked unpaid overtime equivalent to almost three extra days. It's unpaid, because there's a no paid overtime policy without express permission.

The snag is, I've just checked my contract and there's no mention of TOIL, just a requirement "to work such additional hours in excess of your normal hours of work as are reasonably necessary for the proper performance of your duties and to meet the needs of the Company's business."

There's nothing about getting the time back.

I'm used to working for companies that have no overtime or overtime must be approved in advance policies. But usually there's a TOIL policy as well. Not just a 'we require you to donate your free time to our profit-making company' policy!

Obviously, hindsight is a great thing and I didn't notice anything was amiss when I received the contract to sign.

I've asked for a week off work, using three days annual leave and two days' TOIL. What can I say or do if Boss says there's no TOIL policy?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I've asked for a week off work, using three days annual leave and two days' TOIL. What can I say or do if Boss says there's no TOIL policy?

subject to the disclaimer that i'm not a lawyer or HR person, and it's been a long time since i was a union rep -

not sure, really, although i think if the hours they have required you to work have pushed you below the legal minimum wage per hour, then there may be an issue (edited for clarity).

bearing in mind that's the answer from the legal, rather than moral perspective

do you know what other people there do? is it the kind of culture where people do just work more than their contracted hours and accept that's part of the 'package' there? (and by that, i mean people at your sort of level - directors, people who are paid a lot more, people who are on commission or whatever may not be a fair comparison)

or do people tend to do some shorter days if and when things are quieter? Formal 'flexitime' tends to be rarer outside the public sector, and some places have a rule that working additional hours towards TOIL also has to be approved in advance. But many employers regard 'flexible' as just a one way street.

how long have you been in this job? i have an idea it's not very long. you don't have many 'unfair dismissal' rights in the first 2 years of a job, irrespective of any probation period (there are some protections from day one, like discrimination on one of the things covered by equalities act, although it can be more difficult to prove than to know).

gut feeling (which may not be good for your prospects) is to start working your contracted hours, unless and until you're specifically asked, and if stuff doesn't get done, then have it out with them.

if they have replaced four people with you, and expecting you to do the same amount of work, they are taking the piss (what happened to the previous four - did they all opt to leave?)

if you've not been there that long, is there a formal review / probation period with meetings to discuss how it's all going, or is it the sort of place where if they don't tell you to bugger off within the first 6 months, you can assume you've passed that?

and does anyone else (again at your sort of level) in the organisation make anything like as much of an effort as you do? I may be wrong here, but from previous threads, I wonder if your approach to a job is to try a bit too hard, and / or to take on far more responsibility than your role warrants. You are not solely responsible for the success or failure of this shitshow.

Yes, it would be sensible if you've been asked to do more than is physically possible, to tell someone there's a problem before it's too late, rather than say everything's fine, hide the problem/s, and then wait for the shit to hit the fan, but ultimately, it's management's responsibility not yours.

 

[Silas Loom]

I don’t think you have any recourse, unfortunately. You are probably overdue a frank conversation with your boss about workload and expectations. A request out of the blue for retrospective TOIL may well trigger that conversation, anyway.

If it’s important to you to stick to your contracted hours, you likely have to start making some tougher calls on what to prioritise and which deadlines to take seriously, especially if you don’t get enough guidance on this from your boss.

It would also be reasonable for you to ask for paid overtime or TOIL if faced with requests to stay late and get stuff done in future. If these requests are granted, you have established “custom and practice”, which makes it much easier to insist on these in future.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Puddy_Tat I only recently found out that there used to be four support staff. I replaced one person, who'd been there for six years. I'm not sure if she was always the only support staff during her tenure, or whether there were more staff when she started and others weren't replaced when they left.

But there are several aspects of the job description that clearly haven't been done or kept on top of for quite some time, like, years, so it's not just me being slower at some tasks as a newbie, the job(s) have clearly been too much work for one person for a long time. So I theoretically have responsibility for certain tasks but in reality never have time to do them.

It's just relentless firefighting, I can't plan my workload, because I'll often be juggling several tasks so prioritise the most important/urgent, and then in the back of my mind I'll be thinking 'I'll do X on Thursday, but then something like come up on Wednesday or on Thursday morning, which means that I can't do what I planned to.' And it all has a knock-on effect and I'm always doing everything at the last minute or, worse, things are overdue. I used to work in jobs with really strict deadlines and used to joke that I ate deadlines for breakfast. I'm not used to missing deadlines, having to apologise for delays, or having to ask for extensions.

I do keep saying Yes, fine, I can do that by [deadline] but then I keep getting curveballs lobbed at me that throw me off track.

 

[Elpenor]

What happens when you take leave Ann?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I do keep saying Yes, fine, I can do that by [deadline]

do you need to add 'as long as something more urgent doesn't come along'

but then I keep getting curveballs lobbed at me that throw me off track.

do you need to respond to those curveballs either by asking if the new priority takes priority over the existing priority, or saying that if it does, then the previous priority can't be done by deadline?

and how many of these deadlines are real deadlines (as in something with actual consequences will happen / not happen) or artificial deadlines (as in nobody would really notice)?

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Silas Loom I don't want paid overtime, I want to have a life. I'm used to working in deadline-oriented environments, in fact I missed the buzz, the adrenaline rush. But this isn't that, it's just anxiety inducing dread of not being able to get on top of things.

I said I needed a week off next week, either holiday or sick leave, as I was burnt out. But you're right, I do need to have a proper conversation. And to start leaving on time. I struggle with switching off when I haven't completed a task in time to meet a deadline though. And I feel it's counterproductive if I leave on time with a task left unfinished, when it's going to have a knock-on effect on my workload the next day.

Although I've belatedly realised that there's no getting on top of things, no matter how much I do there will always be more, and then some more.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

What happens when you take leave Ann?

I haven't had any leave so far. Although the first three weeks I did four-day weeks because I'd already booked and paid for a training course that was relevant to the role.

My emails will be checked by a colleague and some things will be actioned, but I suspect lots of things will just pile up to be done when I get back.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Puddy_Tat Btw, the minimum wage aspect crossed my mind too, so I'd checked and the extra hours don't take me below minimum wage. It feels sickening, though, to be doing all this for not that much more than minimum wage.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Does the overtime mean you're working more than 48 hours a week, or do the hours push your hourly rate below minimum wage?

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Does the overtime mean you're working more than 48 hours a week, or do the hours push your hourly rate below minimum wage?

No, I'm not doing more than 48 hours a week.*

And no, the additional unpaid hours don't push my hourly rate below minimum wage.

*In some ways, I feel a bit feeble to be complaining as there are lots of people who do much longer hours in harder jobs who have it much worse than me. And at least I have a job.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Could you discuss your workload with your line manager?

 

[Saul Goodman]

*In some ways, I feel a bit feeble to be complaining as there are lots of people who do much longer hours in harder jobs who have it much worse than me. And at least I have a job.

If your contract states X hours, and you're constantly doing X+, then your contract should be changed, because it sounds like they're taking the piss.

 

[kalidarkone]

Always take your full hour lunch break.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Fuck that. You don't work for free. Working for free devalues your hourly rate and the more people that put up with it the worse it gets.

I work in such an environment (gave up teaching about 8 months ago - ironically due to the late nights) in a company who "has no overtime" as a policy for their production department (artists do get overtime). We are constantly slammed with work, there are unreasonable last minutes requests from management (ie, dumping something on my desk at 17:00 as I'm about to go home needing it done that day) sometimes people are working until 4am, and everything is really badly organized. We get 15 mintues lunch break per 8 hour shift.

Needless to say as of next week I am not working there any more.

DO NOT LET THEM TAKE THE PISS OUT OF YOU.

Personally, for me it was clear in my place that they were taking the piss, so I just didn't renew my contract. If you can talk to them, you could try but if there's no recourse and it's company policy for me personally it's not a battle I would be willing to engage in. Plenty of fish in the sea.

 

[A380]

If there is no overtime, paid or toil, in your contract then sadly you probably won’t get it. Salaried jobs don’t normally have it, though they of course also should pay a decent amount. Sadly sometimes companies are making the expectations of a high paying job without the pay ( rather similar to your old cafe boss?) . The others time this can happen is if there where an overtime buyout in the past.

Your Union might be able to advise?

Can you get some training in saying no at work? Assertiveness training is often about this. Even if you have to pay for this ( although ask your bosses and even try your union) . Obviously I don’t know you, but both at the cafe and now here you are getting pressured ( or self pressurising) to work more and more, in both time and emotional cost, to support decisions made by your employers for their benefit.

Sorry that’s a very male ‘ let’s solve your problem, rather than empathise’ answer I know.

 

[Winot]

Also AnnO'Neemus you start multiple threads asking about the rules for things. Unfortunately work life often doesn't work like that; the fact that you are theoretically in the right doesn't help if the employer ignores the rules.

I think assertiveness training would be a good idea.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Also AnnO'Neemus you start multiple threads asking about the rules for things. Unfortunately work life often doesn't work like that; the fact that you are theoretically in the right doesn't help if the employer ignores the rules.

I think assertiveness training would be a good idea.

Yes, you're quite right. I am on the autistic spectrum and a default 'people pleaser' who always seeks to avoid conflict (long story, abuse, PTSD, hence pursuing path of least resistance).

As a result of being neurodivergent, I'm totally, completely and utterly shit at office politics. Most people have average competence, some people have advanced, Machiavellian, levels of office politics, whereas I'm, like, remedial class level.

For example, Boss keeps saying to me: All you have to do is ask for help!

I had a big project recently. There are two other office staff, different roles to me, one works in the office full-time, another works in the office 1-2 days a week, the rest wfh.

So because my Boss keeps telling me to ask for help, in the back of my mind, I think I can ask for help the week before a big work event. I need to pack stuff up and ship it by courier. One guy's off sick, the other tells me on Wednesday, I'm off tomorrow and Friday, it's half term. So I asked for help from the sister company in the back half of our building, they're unable to help, until after 1pm, but the big task needed doing in the morning.

I ended up getting 15 minutes of assistance from two guys, which I appreciated, don't get me wrong. But I was so flustered, I made a mistake and accidentally left out a product.

And also, I haven't logged everything in the system yet, because I haven't had time.

Other examples of me asking for help, include me being flustered and apologising that I was unprepared for a staff meeting, because sales materials and price lists that I had put in my diary to print off earlier in the week, but hadn't been able to do them all because Boss told me to do something else instead. So one of the staff who came in for a staff meeting came upstairs while waiting for a guy stuck in traffic. He asks if he can do anything to help, so I say 'Yeah, actually, can you help by binding some of these portfolios?' He says 'I don't know how to do that,' sits down, faffs with his phone for a couple of minutes then goes back downstairs.

So that's another job that I still haven't finished, I've done half a job, need to print and bind some more and now post them out.

Another was that I asked the guy who does hybrid working if he was busy and if he could come downstairs and help me with some product photography using one of those photography pod things. I remembered he has a 'side hustle' selling things online so checked and he's used them for photos selling his stuff. I went downstairs, set it all up, expecting him to follow when he'd finished whatever he was doing, waited and waited, tried to take some photos myself but they looked shit, then eventually realised time was getting on, it was around home time and he still hadn't come down to help. I went back upstairs, only to realise he'd left for the day.

The other full-time guy, whenever I say '[Name]...' to ask him something, usually just a question, rarely for actual help with a task, he always replies in a grumpy/disgruntled manner like he begrudges the interruption.

So I'm really conflicted. Boss keeps telling me to ask for help, but then when I ask for help, it's not forthcoming, but I can't tell Boss without coming across as a tattle tale bitch.

Once when I'd picked up on a mistake and I'd said X must've made a mistake (because I didn't want to get the blame for it), Boss stopped, looked at me, and calmly said 'We don't do blame here.'

I fucking hate office politics. I'm also having a piggy-in-the-middle situation where people are giving me conflicting instructions.

I really don't know how to deal with these kinds of 'office politics' situations. I'm neurodivergent and really out of my depth.

How on earth can I be assertive when Boss says 'Ask for help!' but when I ask for help it's not forthcoming, and I can't tell Boss that I've asked for help and haven't got it?

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Oh, and another example is that Boss keeps telling me not to waste time looking for answers to questions like who are our suppliers for xyz products, but to ask the other two guys instead, because it will take me 15-20 minutes to look up the suppliers of a dozen products, which is what I had been doing, trying to be self-sufficient, but when I did what Boss instructed and asked one of the logistics guys, he responded by telling me who the suppliers were, but also commenting that I needed training on the system to look up the information myself!

So I'm getting conflicting instructions:

Boss: Don't waste time looking up that into yourself, ask Colleague X, who can tell you the answer in a couple of minutes, instead of you spending 20 minutes looking it up!

Colleague X: Here's the answer, but you really need to be trained to look it up yourself!

Me: ...

Honestly, though, how do neurotypicals deal with scenarios like this without coming across as arsey or difficult.

I mean, I'm told to ask colleague for info, but the impression that colleague doesn't want to be mithered by my queries, even though I'm just doing what Boss told me to do.

It's a total headfuck for a neurodivergent person.

 

[equationgirl]

AnnO'Neemus it's a head fuck for anybody.

Make these problems your boss' problems. Tell them if you don't have time to work on stuff. Give them a list of everything you're working on that's a priority and ask him what you should focus on.

When they lob extra stuff at you, lob it back! 'i won't have chance to get to X until tomorrow, do you still want Y prioritised the most?'

It's not about being a tattle tale, if a person is supposed to be helping you but isn't, tell the boss 'i asked Peter three times to come and help me but he went home instead'. If other people aren't pulling their weight make the boss aware.

You can only do so much. Start leaving on time and taking at least 30 minutes for lunch.