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universal values?

That all depends on what we mean by "materialism", of course...

It would be worth stating it, otherwise potentially it's all very futile...

As far as Phillip Johnson is concerned it means a metaphysical doctrine of naturalism ie. there is no god.

Phillip Johnson is of course talking out of his arse.

However I think there is a real difference between intelligent design creationists and evolutionary biologists. They have both asked themselves questions along the lines of "how come a bird has wings which allows it to fly?" Perhaps traditionally this would be a non-question. You would just say, "well that's the way it is." Nowadays we ask the question and we use Darwin's theory to get the answer. Scientists want to explain. But creationists want their innocence back. So they try to obscure. They don't want to say - "God did it and this is how God did it". They want to say, "well who the hell knows?" Their goal is to confuse. Incidently this partly why dilute micro is so confused. He reads literature that's designed to confuse you.

By the way I'm a little bit sorry about my behaviour. Not totally sorry. But a little bit sorry.
 
I think you're just going to "darwinist pe defense" sites and copying what they say...I guess.

If you must know my last post was based on:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/popper/#CriEva
and something I have read by Hilary Putnam.

I'm not totally original. But I'm not completely predictable either.

If you must know the website that I have been using the most is:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/
It has a good little archive on it:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library.html
I would recommend that you read your way through it.
 
Dilute micro, please try to understand that the theory of punctuated equilibria was an application of the neo-darwinian theory of isolated peripheral allopatric speciation (ie. peripatric speciation) to the fossil record. If you can't take it on trust, just read the original papers. Put down Johnson's jibberish and Denton's double dutch. The papers are quite accessible for the layman. You don't need a creationist to guide you through it.
 
Dilute micro, please try to understand that the theory of punctuated equilibria was an application of the neo-darwinian theory of isolated peripheral allopatric speciation (ie. peripatric speciation) to the fossil record. If you can't take it on trust, just read the original papers. Put down Johnson's jibberish and Denton's double dutch. The papers are quite accessible for the layman. You don't need a creationist to guide you through it.

Actually I know about pe - learned about it in school - and after school - and from the 'guide' material you've been so kind to provide. I'm not a layman.

And thanks but I know about the different types of speciation - learned that in school as well.

Still - pe was written to address the non-darwinian fossil record. Still - pe is "rapid" speciation. Still - making pe look darwinian can only be done with tricks. Had Darwin's theory accommodated for pe there would have been no reason for authoring pe. What you have are people so devoted to darwinism that they'll say anything and believe anything to keep it alive and kicking because otherwise it might look bad when the creationists get a hold of it.
 
Still - pe was written to address the non-darwinian fossil record. Still - pe is "rapid" speciation. Still - making pe look darwinian can only be done with tricks. Had Darwin's theory accommodated for pe there would have been no reason for authoring pe. What you have are people so devoted to darwinism that they'll say anything and believe anything to keep it alive and kicking because otherwise it might look bad when the creationists get a hold of it.

Look, "non-Darwinian" doesn't mean anything. You are just talking about Darwin the man, not Darwin's theory.

Darwin's theory does not predict anything. Really. Nothing at all. No theory predicts anything. You have to apply the theory before you get a prediction and then you have to make assumptions. So tell me the assumption before you tell me about what is "Darwinian" and what is not "Darwinian". What type of speciation are you assuming? Are you assuming Mendelian genetics? Are you assuming Mayr's theory about gene flow? etc. etc.

Remember Newtons theory of gravitation makes no mention of the existence of Neptune. If you are to apply Newton's theory you have to tell us about whether you assume the existence of Neptune and if you do then you will get slightly different predictions to what Newton predicted.

It really isn't a big deal. There is no anti-creationist conspiracy. If you actually read that Eldredge quote that you mined, then you might understand that paleontologists are pretty wild and wooly bunch. They're not desperately orthodox.
 
Creationist saying "Who the Hell knows"?!? I don't think so!

Atheists are "materialists" in your sense of the word, Knotted.

Agnostics are stating "We can't know with absolute certainty, either way..." So, they turn to less futile Qs...

This is to the best of my "knowledge", generally speaking. Is it that different in all of those debates [I am not privy to, obviously]?
 
Creationist saying "Who the Hell knows"?!? I don't think so!

I think so.

gorski said:
Atheists are "materialists" in your sense of the word, Knotted.

Not at all. You're an atheist but not a materialist in my view, for example. You are more hostile to materialism than most creationists.

gorski said:
Agnostics are stating "We can't know with absolute certainty, either way..." So, they turn to less futile Qs...

This is to the best of my "knowledge", generally speaking. Is it that different in all of those debates [I am not privy to, obviously]?

That's knowledge about god's existence, not about what we understand of the natural world.
 
You really are confused, Knotted! You know fuck all about me, for starters. Stop misrepresenting people's stance, in order to serve your silly little ego, imagining how you can get everybody going, push their buttons and just happily troll unnoticed... [Ridiculous!]

As for the rest, I'd like to hear from others, re. these guys debating it from the general positions mentioned and what do they mean.

I repeat my Q, so the debate here may have any meaning: what is "materialism"?!?

Materialism for me, I assure you, is not the same thing you are thinking!!!

Or what Phil means, when he mentions it.

At least not in Marxian sense.

But let's see...
 
You really are confused, Knotted! You know fuck all about me, for starters. Stop misrepresenting people's stance, in order to serve your silly little ego, imagining how you can get everybody going, push their buttons and just happily troll unnoticed... [Ridiculous!]

No you really are hostile to materialism. That thing about Malthus and Darwin that you do is testimony to this. I say this to give you an inkling about what materialism actually means as opposed to what you think it means.

Don't continue on like this. If you call me a troll, I'll actually start real trolling again to show the difference. It won't be pretty.

gorski said:
Materialism for me, I assure you, is not the same thing you are thinking!!!

Yes I know.
 
You just admitted to trolling. You know I don't mean what you claim I do but you keep on doing it... Blimey! So, stop it.
 
You just admitted to trolling. You know I don't mean what you claim I do but you keep on doing it... Blimey! So, stop it.

No, you don't think you mean what I claim you do. That's because you've learnt to warp words and ideas so that they suit you. By the way this is why it takes someone like Kyser or me to understand half your posts. We have learnt gorski-ese.
 
Look, "non-Darwinian" doesn't mean anything. You are just talking about Darwin the man, not Darwin's theory.

Darwin's theory does not predict anything. Really. Nothing at all. No theory predicts anything. You have to apply the theory before you get a prediction and then you have to make assumptions. So tell me the assumption before you tell me about what is "Darwinian" and what is not "Darwinian". What type of speciation are you assuming? Are you assuming Mendelian genetics? Are you assuming Mayr's theory about gene flow? etc. etc.

Remember Newtons theory of gravitation makes no mention of the existence of Neptune. If you are to apply Newton's theory you have to tell us about whether you assume the existence of Neptune and if you do then you will get slightly different predictions to what Newton predicted.

It really isn't a big deal. There is no anti-creationist conspiracy. If you actually read that Eldredge quote that you mined, then you might understand that paleontologists are pretty wild and wooly bunch. They're not desperately orthodox.

So now theories don't predict anything?

What a novel idea knotted - if Darwin's theory doesn't predict anything then it can't be wrong.

But Darwin told what his theory predicted on many occasions...."if my theory be true...."

Darwin told you what is darwinian.
 
So now theories don't predict anything?

'sright.

dilute micro said:
What a novel idea knotted - if Darwin's theory doesn't predict anything then it can't be wrong.

Nope. It means that Darwin's theory when applied with various auxilliary theories, conjectures and facts might make predictions which turn out to be empirically falsified. That means scientists will then discuss where things break down - was it the theory or the auxilliary statements. You have to enter the scientific discussion.

dilute micro said:
But Darwin told what his theory predicted on many occasions...."if my theory be true...."

That's Darwin applying his theory.

dilute micro said:
Darwin told you what is darwinian.

?
 
OK dilute micro. If we are going talk about "darwinism" can we agree on what "darwinism" is.

Here's Mayr's definition:

1) Evolution as such. This is the theory that the world is not constant or recently created nor perpetually cycling, but rather is steadily changing, and that organisms are transformed in time.
2) Common descent. This is the theory that every group of organisms descended from a common ancestor, and that all groups of organisms, including animals, plants, and microorganisms, ultimately go back to a single origin of life on earth.
3) Multiplication of species. This theory explains the origin of the enormous organic diversity. It postulates that species multiply, either by splitting into daughter species or by "budding", that is, by the establishment of geographically isloated founder populations that evolve into new species.
4) Gradualism. According to this theory, evolutionary change takes place through the gradual change of populations and not by the sudden (saltational) production of new individuals that represent a new type.
5) Natural selection. According to this theory, evolutionary change comes about throught the abundant production of genetic variation in every generation. The relatively few individuals who survive, owing to a particularly well-adapted combination of inheritable characters, give rise to the next generation.

Of course not all "darwinists" have agreed with all five components of Darwin's theory. Huxley, for example, would have rejected 4). Indeed it is 4) which looks as if contradicts the theory of punctuated equilibria. But this is not so because gradualism is contrasted with saltation, not punctuation. Both Gould and Eldredge have consistently denied that pe is saltationist.

Now perhaps you can use this theory to derive a theory about what the fossil record should be. But it is far from obvious how you would do this. If you have such a derivation then let's see it. Let's see what assumptions you need to make in order to make such a derivation.
 
So far this is all I've been able to discern - So and so gave x account of y. Look here's some facts that disagree with x's account. Group 1 - x is refuted, Group 2 - x is only wrong in regards to the facts stated. And everyone picks sides in accordance with their religious or atheist prejudice. Doesn't really seem like anything productive can come of thise.
 
I don't think there is a hard a fast rule between deciding whether Group 1 or Group 2 is right. That doesn't mean that we cannot decide whether Group 1 or Group 2 is right.

In the Newtonian example - Group 1 would be saying, Newton's theory has been refuted. Group 2 would be saying, Newton didn't know about Neptune. In this case Group 2 is clearly correct. In other examples Group 1 might be correct.* Science doesn't procede as a mindless algorithm, it requires thought and judgement.

*Of course there is a very similar example of this. The orbit of Mercury has anomalies which cannot be accounted for by Newtonian physics, and astronomers did search for another planet to explain this. It turns out that we need general relativity to explain it.
 
So hang on - is DM saying that PE is saltationist?

I assume that somewhere someone has pointed out the timescale point? That PE is geological, not biological time? That would be the same as saying on a cosmological scale, the creation of planets appears to be instantaneous, even tho it takes millions of years.
 
So hang on - is DM saying that PE is saltationist?

I assume that somewhere someone has pointed out the timescale point? That PE is geological, not biological time? That would be the same as saying on a cosmological scale, the creation of planets appears to be instantaneous, even tho it takes millions of years.

Oh, I've pointed this out many times. I'm not sure if dm is saying pe is saltationist. I think he is saying that "darwinism" makes a prediction about the fossil record which turns out to be wrong, then pe comes along and gives a different - hence non-darwinian - account.
 
So hang on - is DM saying that PE is saltationist?

I assume that somewhere someone has pointed out the timescale point? That PE is geological, not biological time? That would be the same as saying on a cosmological scale, the creation of planets appears to be instantaneous, even tho it takes millions of years.

Does kyser understand pe as poorly as knotted? :D

Hey kyser tell me how you think a geologic timescale would differ from a biological timescale and how a pe species evolves under one timescale and the parent species evolves under another. Don't go googling. ;)
 
'sright.



Nope. It means that Darwin's theory when applied with various auxilliary theories, conjectures and facts might make predictions which turn out to be empirically falsified. That means scientists will then discuss where things break down - was it the theory or the auxilliary statements. You have to enter the scientific discussion.



That's Darwin applying his theory.



?

Oh so Darwin's theory didn't make predictions (and no theory makes predictions you say) but other theories, "auxilliary theories", do make predictions, you say.
 
lol. Yeah but we're still very much short on transitionals.

Bear evolution has a good fossil record iirc, if you're after examples of species-to-species transitions:

bearevolution.gif


(http://www.donsmaps.com/bear.html)
 
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