Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

The universe really did come from nothing

a)It's not *quite* uniform. We don't know why.
b)It comes from everywhere because it was created when everywhere was in one place.

A) well exactly. If it was constant there could be some other explanation... the fact its not constant confuses the issue.
B) I get that... but why, now we are many light years from the source... is it still nearly uniform? It should be more.concentrated closer to the centre. but its not.
 
The inflating balloon analogy is the best one, I think (for expanding space and there being no centre to the universe).

As for the universe coming from nothing, more accurate to say that the universe is nothing. A positron is the antiparticle of an electron. This doesn't just mean that it has equal and opposite charge. It is also obeying the laws of physics in the opposite time direction to an electron.

A backwards-moving electron when viewed with time moving forwards appears the same as an ordinary electron, except its attracted to normal electrons – we say it has positive charge. For this reason its called a positron. The positron is a sister to the electron, and it is an example of an anti-particle. This phenomenon is quite general. Every particle in Nature has an amplitude to move backwards in time, and therefore has an anti-particle.

Richard Feynman, QED, p.98

The laws of physics work equally well in both time directions, perhaps. ;)
 
Certainly, the theories that say "the universe is expanding" don't mean that there is some space within which everything is moving away from each other, which would mean there was a central point. Space is expanding. It's really not an easy thing - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space has some summaries.

The whole point of asking the question was to discuss the idea of expanding space. The cmbr confuses me because i can't make it make sense within a big bang expanding universe. All the explanations I have heard have shoehorned it in and made generalizations.. for example why its not really uniform and why if its not uniform it forms no pattern. Analogies work when using 2d examples like the balloon... but fall apart in 3.

It should be simple to explain.
 
Analogies work when using 2d examples like the balloon... but fall apart in 3.
I think you've misunderstood the point of the analogy. You take away a dimension in order to produce an image that can be visualised. That is the analogy bit. Mathematically, it's no problem adding dimensions, but we can't visualise three-dimensional space expanding in the same way as we can visualise two-dimensional space expanding because our visualisation space is itself 3D.
 
Fair enough... do you get the point of my question? Do you have an answer that addresses my issues with it?

There is a commonly accepted view of cmbr but I think the anomalies give clues to a much deeper explanation.
 
As Crispy said, it's not quite uniform and we don't know why. So you're right - there is a much deeper explanation. There are many more layers of the onion yet to be pulled back. You won't find any physicist who disagrees with that. I quoted Richard Feynman above, who came up with some of the very best insights into the fabric of the universe. Here's another quote from him, with which he opens his book QED:

What I am going to tell you about is what we teach our physics students in the third or fourth year of graduate school... It is my task to convince you not to turn away because you don't understand it. You see my physics students don't understand it... That is because I don't understand it. Nobody does.


I'll give you another analogy if you like. :D In the disputes on here over the nature of money, it is contended that banks create money out of nothing. They do this by taking a balance sheet and putting the same amount on either side - a debit and a credit that are equal and opposite. This balance sheet is another way of expressing nothing: eg: 3 - 3 = 0. Similarly, for each function of an electron running 'forwards' in time, there is another function for it to run 'backwards' in time as a positron. And you cannot have the one without the other.
 
Its an interesting analogy. We are currently experiencing a crash because fundamentally people couldn't pay back the -3 on their side of the balance sheet.

Now what if cmbr is evidence that the books don't balance? What crashes then? Science?
 
I know... I was just playing.

But I think the cmbr is just one clue that the books don't balance with the current explanation. I think it may be possible that the cmbr is the remnants of a previous universe...
 
The whole point of asking the question was to discuss the idea of expanding space. The cmbr confuses me because i can't make it make sense within a big bang expanding universe. All the explanations I have heard have shoehorned it in and made generalizations.. for example why its not really uniform and why if its not uniform it forms no pattern. Analogies work when using 2d examples like the balloon... but fall apart in 3.

It should be simple to explain.

I think it's a good idea to understand the different levels in variations of the CMBR.

Obviously first of all when examining the CMBR, you need to make sure you're looking in the right band of radiation, you need to account for the effects local objects such as the Sun, the Moon, the Milky Way and Earth itself, etc, etc. For example in the plane of the Milky Way the sky is a lot hotter in the band of the CMBR due to the fact there are a lot of stars giving off radiation in the galaxy.

The first thing noticeable about the the CMBR as viewed from Earth is not the same in all directions, it has a significant dipole (i.e. it has it's hottest spot at one end of the sky and it gets colder and colder in different directions until it reaches its coldest spot in the opposite direction). This dipole varies seasonally and is simply due to the result of the motion of the Earth around the Sun, the motion of the Sun in the Milk Way and the motion of the Milky Way itself relative to the frame in which the CMBR is isotropic (i.e. the same in all directions).

Once you factor out this dipole, the first thing to notice about the CMBR is it is very, very uniform. The pictures showing fluctuations in the CMBR from WMAP are essentially showing very small variations which actually require very sensitive equipment to pick up. In fact it is too uniform for the earlier and simpler big bang models because they say that opposite ends of the sky were not causally-connected in the early Universe (i.e. could affect each other) and therefore should not be in thermal equilibrium. The uniformity of the CMBR was the prime motivator for postulating "cosmic inflation" (i.e. that the early Universe went through a period of very rapid early expansion), which actually also solved a few other problems with the original big bang model.

The fluctuations in CMBR that can be seen on WMAP are essentially small and random. We know the Universe can't be completely uniform, otherwise things like planets, stars, galaxies, clusters, superclusters wouldn't exist, so it's no surprise the early Universe wasn't 100% uniform and is this is completely consistent with big bang/inflationary models. It is still possible that there are genuine anomalies in the CMBR (e.g. the proposed "The Axis of Evil"), but that we don't have sensitive enough data/analysis to truly distinguish these anomalies from the random noise of the CMBR. But at the moment all data is consistent with the small and random fluctuations predicted by modern mainstream big bang cosmology. When cosmologists look for anomalies in the CMBR, they are not looking for random variations, they are looking for departures from the Gaussian distribution of these variations, which indicated a departure from the standard model of cosmology.

Another observation of the CMBR is that it's temperature varies in space as well: the further away you look the hotter it seems to be at those points; but this too is exactly what standard big bang cosmology predicts. because the further away you look the further back in time you are also looking and so you are essentially observing the Universe at an earlier denser period when the CMBR was hotter.

The thing to realize about the analogies for the expansion/geometry of the Universe is that they are just analogies for mathematical models that are not so easy to grasp unless you are have some grounding in Lorentzian manifolds. Perhaps the best thing to know is that simply by assuming a uniform Universe governed by general relativity with realistic dynamics leads you pretty much inescapably to the conclusion that it is either expanding or contracting.
 
The thing to realize about the analogies for the expansion/geometry of the Universe is that they are just analogies for mathematical models that are not so easy to grasp unless you are have some grounding in Lorentzian manifolds. Perhaps the best thing to know is that simply by assuming a uniform Universe governed by general relativity with realistic dynamics leads you pretty much inescapably to the conclusion that it is either expanding or contracting.

That certainly narrows it down a bit. Fuck eternal sameness.
 
So what will happen to it eventually?

It depends on the model but in the standard Lambda-CDM concordance model the Universe's expansion is accelerating, approaching an exponential rate of expansion as time goes to infinity.

In this model galaxies will tend to enter our visible Universe rather than leave, so we will always be able to in principle see the galaxies we can see now and we will in future also (in principle) be able to see galaxies that were previously impossible to see, though any galaxy currently outside the visible Universe by more than roughly about 50% of the current radius of the visible Universe will remain forever unobservable (even in principle).

Of course though the size of our visible Universe will change with time and will approach infinity as time goes to infinity and galaxies which are not gravitationally bound to the Milky Way will be pulled about by expansion getting further away in time, becoming progressively harder to observe due to distance and increasing red shift.

On a smaller scale even graviationally bound structures will come apart due to 'evaporation' (random exchange of momenta between bodies within the structure which allows the bodies to achieve escape velocity) causing galactic clusters, galaxies, solar systems to dissipate over time.

Whilst this is going on there will come a point where all the stars have burned out and there will be not enough of the right material within any given volume for new star formation to occur leaving behind only stellar remnants such as black dwarfs, neutron stars and black holes. Even these remnants will lose mass due to the radiation and evaporation, eventually melting into nothingness. In the very far future the last remaining objects will be the largest supermassive black holes which will evaporate due to Hawking radiation at which point the Universe will reach thermal equilibrium and "heat death" and essentially be nothing more than a very diffuse gas of fundamental particles.
 
That certainly narrows it down a bit. Fuck eternal sameness.

Yep once you establish the Universe is uniform (i.e. the same everywhere and with no directional biases), that only leaves you with three possible 'static' (eternally unchanging) solutions in general relativity. The first is simply Minkowski space which is completely empty flat spacetime, the second is de Sitter space which describes space with a positive cosmological constant, but completely devoid of matter (de Sitter space expands, but because there's no matter and the cosmological constant is the energy of a vacuum the amount of energy in any given constant volume is the same at any time, and it also avoids the big bang singularity as expansion slows quickly enough the further back in time you go), the third is the Einstein static Universe which contains matter, but also has a positive cosmological constant that exactly balances out gravitational attraction.

The first two are unrealistic as they contain no matter (though de Sitter space is a useful approximation for both the early and later Universe when inflation and then vacuum energy dominate matter), the third has the problem is that it is unstable and even the smallest departure from absolute uniformity (and as we know the Universe is not absoluetly Uniform) cause a given region to either undergo runaway collapse or expansion.
 
Whilst this is going on there will come a point where all the stars have burned out and there will be not enough of the right material within any given volume for new star formation to occur leaving behind only stellar remnants such as black dwarfs, neutron stars and black holes. Even these remnants will lose mass due to the radiation and evaporation, eventually melting into nothingness. In the very far future the last remaining objects will be the largest supermassive black holes which will evaporate due to Hawking radiation at which point the Universe will reach thermal equilibrium and "heat death" and essentially be nothing more than a very diffuse gas of fundamental particles.


God thats really depressing. so i take it theories like cosmic crunch are completly discredited now?
 
God thats really depressing. so i take it theories like cosmic crunch are completly discredited now?
Pretty much. The accelerating expansion of the universe is well accepted and has been observed in multiple ways.
There might be some new model that accounts for the observations. Some current "Dark Energy" theories suppose that the vacuum has an intrinsic energy content, which creates the inflationary pressure. The trouble is that current particle physics predicts a vacuum energy many orders of magnitude larger than the observed inflation. It's a knotty problem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy
 
Roger Penrose thinks the heat death of this universe may be the big bang of another.

Interviewer cuts him off just as he gets interesting, unfortunately.



Fascinating, both for Penrose's thoughts, and the interviewer's attempts to treat scientific theory as he would a politician's policy :D (And now you've changed your mind! What insanity!)
 
God thats really depressing. so i take it theories like cosmic crunch are completly discredited now?

Not completely discredited, the main unknown in the model is the dark energy field. The reason for assuming the dark energy field behaves as it does are two-fold: firstly a Lambda-type term (i.e. cosmological constant) is the most natural extension of general relativity and secondly it behaves exactly like vacuum energy (except that it is many, many magnitudes smaller than would be naively predicted by quantum field theory). However there are many possibilities including dark energy that leads to a big crunch or a big rip (where the Universe expands so quickly finite distances become infinite in a finite time). Even if heat death occurs there are several models (including Penrose's) where this causes some spontaneous event re-creating conditions near the big bang.
 
If I was a program in a computer. Maybe I am programed to be in a computer world that has certain parameters. The program lives in that world and does not know anything else. Though free thinking within their programming, they can't find out what is beyond their universe as it exists on a different plane. The program's universe came from nothing, as far as they know and understand the universe, and reverts to nothing when it ends. Even in the world beyond the program this is true, there is no universe when it is not there. The code and the programmer are not part of the nothing despite being the creators.
 
The problem with religion is it falls so far behind that when you try to explain this stuff to someone who believes in god, they think you're talking nonsense.
Moments later...
Well it's simple, when you lift something up, you're using positive energy, the negative energy that is pulling it back down is gravity. So you're using positive energy to overturn negative energy.

Gravity is negative energy.

Kinlol. :D
 
It depends on the model but in the standard Lambda-CDM concordance model the Universe's expansion is accelerating, approaching an exponential rate of expansion as time goes to infinity.

In this model galaxies will tend to enter our visible Universe rather than leave, so we will always be able to in principle see the galaxies we can see now and we will in future also (in principle) be able to see galaxies that were previously impossible to see, though any galaxy currently outside the visible Universe by more than roughly about 50% of the current radius of the visible Universe will remain forever unobservable (even in principle).

Of course though the size of our visible Universe will change with time and will approach infinity as time goes to infinity and galaxies which are not gravitationally bound to the Milky Way will be pulled about by expansion getting further away in time, becoming progressively harder to observe due to distance and increasing red shift.

On a smaller scale even graviationally bound structures will come apart due to 'evaporation' (random exchange of momenta between bodies within the structure which allows the bodies to achieve escape velocity) causing galactic clusters, galaxies, solar systems to dissipate over time.

Whilst this is going on there will come a point where all the stars have burned out and there will be not enough of the right material within any given volume for new star formation to occur leaving behind only stellar remnants such as black dwarfs, neutron stars and black holes. Even these remnants will lose mass due to the radiation and evaporation, eventually melting into nothingness. In the very far future the last remaining objects will be the largest supermassive black holes which will evaporate due to Hawking radiation at which point the Universe will reach thermal equilibrium and "heat death" and essentially be nothing more than a very diffuse gas of fundamental particles.
is that in some way based on the second law of thermodynamics?
 
Back
Top Bottom