sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
How?. It’s the cost of taking your car in.
Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ)
- Thread starter joustmaster
- Start date
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
Per-mile charging will be next week, innit. Though I'm not in principle against that either. What people don't understand is that there already is per mile charging. It's all in the cost of petrol. Once everyone's car can be charged from the same source that powers your refrigerator, the gov't is going to have to recoup that lost income somehow. So it is inevitable, if a good decade out still."Thin end of the wedge, innit..."
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Point out that Boris introduced it first.
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
Schapps' preferred income generator was actually expanding the Congestion Charge zone out to the then ULEZ zone (North and South Circulars). The expanded ULEZ affects a lot fewer people than that would have.
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
I don't think it's something that would come at a London level. It's something that Parliament would be looking at nation-wide.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Drive everywhere in reverse and they government will end up owing you the money for all the minus-miles you clock up
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Drive everywhere in reverse and they government will end up owing you the money for all the minus-miles you clock up
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yeah, and nobody is reversing this decision, whoever is made mayor next time (it will be Khan).
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It's the cost of the fine for not paying the charge. In Paris, for example, you buy Crit'Air sticker for about a fiver and you're ok to drive.
If you don't pay the charge in London the fine is £180, so you're not comparing like with like.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You're right, but the real figure is £90 really. £180 includes a penalty charge on the penalty charge.
We can quibble about what exact numbers are reasonable, but not about the principle surely? The idea that everyone should be free to drive whatever they like wherever they like whenever they like is just not feasible.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
People will hate the idea, but toll roads also do that. Smart toll systems allow you to just drive and pay the bill automatically at the end of the week or month or whatever. They have them across the road system in Japan.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I agree. I think he should price as many people off London roads as possible.
More space for me!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yeah, well you need your own special rate.
I'm not a fan of regulation by pricing generally, but in this instance, it's hard to see how else they can do it. Would require some radical restructuring of society to create a different way of rationing driving.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Recent report from the UN estimates that air pollution reduces life expectancy by around 2 years worldwide, btw. These measures, or something like them, are very long overdue.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Per mile charging makes total sense. You can then also set the rate based on the vehicle weight, emissions and overall size as well as the specific road and time of day. Make central London in a Range Rover cost £10/mile...
In Paris - you are only allowed petrol euro 4 or newer and diesel euro 5 or newer or you pay the 180 fine.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It's not a serious attempt to reduce emissions. A serious attempt would be to ban the most polluting private vehicles completely and nail drivers with £1000 fines for non-compliance. That'll never happen though, so he's gone for a headline-grab with what is really just a regressive tax on the handful of poorer people who can't afford a couple of grand to buy a compliant vehicle. Wealthier folk couldn't give a toss about paying £12.50 or they wouldn't be driving 50-100k motors in the first place.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I agree that it is regressive. Many taxes are, including petrol tax, fag tax and booze tax. It's far from ideal, but if it gets polluting cars off the road, it does a job. As I understand it, there are grants available for people to change over to a compliant vehicle. Maybe these grants need to be better.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And the technology for this already exists.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
The Home Counties are throwing their toys out of the pram cos the grants only apply to people who live in London and not those who live close to London. My esteemed county council has wasted over £1m of my council tax trying to get ULEZ thrown out, they lost and are now refusing to allow TfL to put up signage in Surrey warning drivers they are about to enter the zone. Fucking pathetic.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
That must be a real pain for the grand total of approx. 6 vehicles there that don't meet the standard.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Pre E4 and derv E5's aren't banned in London though.
Comparing a fine for flouting a ban to a daily entrance fee is preposterous.
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
The smart thing there is that the Crit'Air system is set up for harsher controls without redoing the whole system. Our Euro5 petrol is 1-rated, but any diesel, even Euro6, is rated 2 or more. There's not much that burns hydrocarbons that's going to emit less than a Euro5 petrol engine. (Yes, there's Euro6 for petrol, but the differences are miniscule. All the headline numbers are identical.)
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
Especially when all they needed to do was ask the Department for Transport, who'd already looked at it and realised they couldn't possibly block it in court. Instead they blew tax money on lawyers in a hopeless lawsuit.
pretty sure I disagree with every part of that
people who drive '50-100k' motors don't need to be rich. most are on lease. and they have simply prioritised a car over other stuff. the idea that they all don't care about paying every day to drive into London I find extremely unlikely. these are the people moaning - people who love their car, love driving everywhere and don't want to have to pay more to do it.
Chz
Stark Raving Sane
Cars on lease will be new enough that they're not affected anyhow.pretty sure I disagree with every part of that
people who drive '50-100k' motors don't need to be rich. most are on lease. and they have simply prioritised a car over other stuff. the idea that they all don't care about paying every day to drive into London I find extremely unlikely. these are the people moaning - people who love their car, love driving everywhere and don't want to have to pay more to do it.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I disagree. They're are some of the people moaning but not because the £12.50 is going to make one iota of difference to their lifestyles. They're moaning because they are being told they have to pay it by someone they have broader political differences with. It's a plaything for them, not a serious lifestyle protest. That's coming from the poorer folk.
