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UK photographers: the law and your rights: discussion

More photography laws?


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Sort of like the old "independent witness" idea in multiracial areas in the 70s and 80s, where if you saw the Bill hassling someone, you went over and took notes on what was happening.
Either would be a good development. (I know this pun doesn't work quite so well in the era of digital photography ...)

I have argued for this (specifically around the use of stop and search) for years. I almost got a formal scheme off the ground at Brixton when I was there - it wold have involved providing some advice and guidance to those wishing to do it and then providing them with some identification (for showing to police officers) and a direct line number to a senior officer to report concerns - a bit like Independent Custody Visitors, but for the street. Sadly the bosses bottled out ... :(

People should be encouraged to "supervise" police activity in that way (in a resonsible and non-interventionist fashion) as it is the only effective way of overseeing their activity - their supervisors cannot be with them except for a tiny proportion of the time.

Equally people should be encouraged to do likewise with criminal activity, for exactly the same reason: the police cannot be at the scene of a crime except for a tiny proportion of cases.
 
And still stupid cops think they can make people delete photos.
I have no idea why this level of ignorance is so persistent ... :confused:

They will never have been trained that that is what they can do. It is not consistent with (in fact, it is the polar opposite of) other evidence handling practice. There is no law or procedure which they will have been left to their own devices to interpret which may be widely misinterpreted.

I suspect that (a) there are lots of new laws which individual officers have had very little, if any training on and which have not been proactively drawn to their attention and (b) they have therefore based their understanding on media coverage of new laws (which has sometimes suggested that police would have that power).

But seeing as this has been going on for so long now I do not understand why forces have not published a simple resume of what they can, and cannot do in relation to photographers and made sure that every officer acknowledges that they have been given it and understand it.
 
I have been reading this thread with great interest and wonder why you put up with this oppression.
This is an important thread and posting up pretty pictures of police in foreign lands to support some wildly flawed irrelevant argument has nothing to do with the debate whatsoever. Please don't pursue this 'point' here, derf - start a new thread if you want a debate on the merits of foreign policing versus UK "oppression."
 
As bombs went off in Baghdad the London-based Iraq elections in Brent, North West London, did not go smoothly either. Some Iraqi-Kurds found they were unable to vote despite holding all the relevant documentation.

London Metropolitan police and TSG riot officers were brought in to contain the Kurdish voters in a pen. Tempers frayed and the Kurdish protestors pushed into the street and blocked the highway in a sit-down protest. As scuffles broke out and arrests made the police came under attack from bottles and rocks. The TSG riot police retaliated with batons and shields.

http://current.com/items/92301998_police-and-kurds-clash-during-london-iraq-election.htm

At 03:52 "Stop taking pictures or I'll take that off you".
 
David Hanson MP, the UK Policing and Crime Minister has made a statement today:

“I recently met with Austin Mitchell MP, members of the Parliamentary All Party Photography Group and representatives of the photographic press and the Royal Photographic Society to discuss the issue of counter terrorism powers and offences in relation to photography.

“I welcomed the opportunity to reassure all those concerned with this issue that we have no intention of Section 44 or Section 58A being used to stop ordinary people taking photos or to curtail legitimate journalistic activity.

“Guidance has been provided to all police forces advising that these powers and offences should not be used to stop innocent member of the public, tourists or responsible journalists from taking photographs.

“These powers and offences are intended to help protect the public and those on the front line of our counter terrorism operations from terrorist attack. For the 58A offence to be committed, the information is of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism.

“I have committed to writing to Austin Mitchell MP to reinforce this message and to follow-up on the representations made to me at today’s meeting.”

http://www.wirefresh.com/uk-minister-reassures-photographers-about-police-harassment/
 
An update about Clause 43 of the Digital Economy Bill. Photographers won!

Photographers can claim a victory after the House of Commons removed the controversial Clause 43 from the Digital Economy Bill

Clause 43 would have allowed third parties to gain a license to use any orphan work without its copyright owner's permission provided it had done a diligent search for that person. Photographers united under the Stop43 campaign argued that the proposed legislation would bring to an end a photographer's control over his images.

Yesterday, after intense debate over the past couple of days in the House of Commons, the government introduced an amendment to the bill that removed Clause 43 altogether. The amendment was passed.

"The way is now open for photographers and other creatives to present new thinking enabling the legitimate use of our genuine orphan works for strictly defined non-commercial "cultural" purposes in a way that will satisfy the needs of the cultural sector, to prevent the future orphaning of our work, and to redress defects in current copyright law," says the campaign group Stop43.

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=874148
 
This is an important thread and posting up pretty pictures of police in foreign lands to support some wildly flawed irrelevant argument has nothing to do with the debate whatsoever. Please don't pursue this 'point' here, derf - start a new thread if you want a debate on the merits of foreign policing versus UK "oppression."

Surely that is the point. Lots of posts here telling how the police hassle or even arrest some poor sod for doing nothing wrong. At the same time police in other countries (and one not that many years clear of being an oppressive one) encourage you to take photos.
It puts into contrast how far the UK has gone down the pipes with daft laws used against poor sods who have no bad intent.
Frankly I'm shocked at the way things seem to be going over there and feel sorry for what you blokes are having to put up with.

Added. Yes it is a serious thread and I'm finding it very interesting.
 
I had an interesting experience whilst photographing the sunset in Blackheath last night. Apparently a local resident phoned the police due to someone with a camera behaving "suspiciously" <sigh>. The full story is on my blog:

http://www.davidkhardman.com/2010/04/public-photography-paranoia-and-police.html

Interesting?

Does Terry Waite still live somewhere in Blackheath? I once had the attention of a number of police when I was inadvertantly the nearest person to him with a camera.
 
I'm a budding amateur photographer, a single female, look quite young (but am 35, lol), have a camera that is a step up from a run of the mill digital, but nothing like the monster equipment the media run around with... yet yesterday I was confronted in the park, today in a street... all for taking pics of birds!! Today I was asked if i was a terrorist by a pretty aggressive male in a quiet street near me, he actually meant it and had his phone out to call the police! Yesterday i was approached in a park by a man clearing rubbish who had hidden from me behind a tree and called his boss on me!? He asked why I was taking photos of him... despite the fact my camera was pointing the other way at birds on the grass area!?

I KNOW I'm allowed by law to take photos in a park, and okay I'm risking it a bit doing so in the street - but why is it okay to come and intimidate a lone female like that? Especially one as innocent and law-abiding as me!? :(
 
Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition deal: full text

The Guardian/New government said:
10. Civil liberties

The parties agree to implement a full programme of measures to reverse the substantial erosion of civil liberties under the Labour government and roll back state intrusion.

This will include:

• A freedom or great repeal bill;

• The scrapping of the ID card scheme, the national identity register, the next generation of biometric passports and the Contact Point database;

• Outlawing the fingerprinting of children at school without parental permission;

• The extension of the scope of the Freedom of Information Act to provide greater transparency;

• Adopting the protections of the Scottish model for the DNA database;

• The protection of historic freedoms through the defence of trial by jury;

• The restoration of rights to non-violent protest;

• The review of libel laws to protect freedom of speech;

• Safeguards against the misuse of anti-terrorism legislation;

• Further regulation of CCTV;

• Ending of storage of internet and email records without good reason;

• A new mechanism to prevent the proliferation of unnecessary new criminal offences.

[emphasis added]
 
Yes, speaking as someone who has voted Labour in every election from 1992 onwards (including this one), I was hoping that one of the very few good things to come out of a Tory/LibDem Government would be the anti-authoritarian stuff.

Can of worms opened? :hmm:
 
Some good news:

The Metropolitan Police has apologised and paid damages to two photojournalists after its officers prevented them from covering a protest outside the Greek Embassy. Marc Vallée and Jason Parkinson were prevented from capture images of the protest in December 2008 by officers from the Met’s diplomatic protection group. The London protests were a reaction to an incident in Greece where a young boy had been killed by the Greek police force. Vallée had his camera pulled away from his face and the lens of Parkinson's video camera was covered by officers. The two men were then told by officers they were not permitted to film them. The Metropolitan Police last week admitted the pair were unlawfully prevented from reporting by its officers and accepted liability for breaching both journalists' rights to freedom of expression – as detailed in Article 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights. Each man was paid legal costs by the Met and damages of £3,500.

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=45636&c=1
 
Meanwhile in Romford:

This would be the mandatory angry blog post about my harassment in Romford yesterday. I was told by the police I was breaching the terrorism act, public order act, various misc copyright and child protection laws and otherwise being an “Agitator”. The incident started when I took an image (not a very good one it seems :p) of a Police Cadet unit forming up to take part in an Armed Forces Day parade. I was quickly and aggressively stopped by one of their adult officers asking me who I worked for. I responded that I was a freelance and upon being told I needed parental permission to photograph them, I explained this was a public event in a public place and that I didn’t for editorial use. She then demanded my details and when I declined, I was quickly pulled aside by police officers. Then started recording, see below for the rest. I had my lens covered while trying to photograph my harassment , then told ‘I consider you a threat under the terrorism act’ for photographing a police officer, had my camera taken from around my neck, was detained and frog marched away before being pushed down some stairs and told they were concerned for my safety.

http://julesmattsson.wordpress.com/2010/06/28/the-romford-incident/
 
Surely that is the point. Lots of posts here telling how the police hassle or even arrest some poor sod for doing nothing wrong. At the same time police in other countries (and one not that many years clear of being an oppressive one) encourage you to take photos.
It puts into contrast how far the UK has gone down the pipes with daft laws used against poor sods who have no bad intent.
Frankly I'm shocked at the way things seem to be going over there and feel sorry for what you blokes are having to put up with.

Added. Yes it is a serious thread and I'm finding it very interesting.

Ive spent a lot of time in spain, and know ridiculous stuff happens there too (maybe not photography wise, but certainly driving etc.......) I think every police force probably has it bane of contention.
 
They should stop now:

The home secretary has announced stricter tests for stop and search powers after they were ruled unlawful by the European Court of Human Rights.

Police will now not be allowed to use the powers unless they "reasonably suspect" a person of being a terrorist.

The court ruled on the power to search without suspicion under Section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000 last month.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10555430.stm
 
It should be possible to identify, name and shame or hound these individuals that are making these assumptions on what is a terrorist threat? Out here in the wilderness you could photograph local air bases, nuclear power station, transport infrastructure and other potential terrorist targets without any interference from the Police. Photograph an RTA and the Police want to know who you are, where you live etc etc etc... :facepalm:
 
The IPCC now says that knowing someone has been filming the Docklands Light Railway is reasonable grounds to suspect they are a terrorist, and thus justify a search under Section 43 of the Terrorism Act, especially due to all the confusion caused by the media talking about police stopping photographers for no reason.

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/pr_141210_woolwichstopandsearch.htm
that link doesn't work but this one does: http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_141210_woolwichstopandsearch.aspx
 
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