Twin Sisters: A World Apart

[winifred]

Has anybody seen the documentary Twin Sisters: A World Apart? I chanced upon it recently whilst scanning through bbc iplayer, and would highly recommend it as a fascinating and emotive bit of viewing.

It's a remarkable story about two identical twins who get separated as babies, and go on to lead very different lives - one in Norway and the other in California. Having watched it, my wife and I got to thinking that maybe there is a higher power of some sort, as fate seemed to intervene to keep the twins connected - even though the odds were stacked very much against them ever meeting again.

You can also see a write up of it here.

 

[mack]

Has anybody seen the documentary Twin Sisters: A World Apart? I chanced upon it recently whilst scanning through bbc iplayer, and would highly recommend it as a fascinating and emotive bit of viewing.

It's a remarkable story about two identical twins who get separated as babies, and go on to lead very different lives - one in Norway and the other in California. Having watched it, my wife and I got to thinking that maybe there is a higher power of some sort, as fate seemed to intervene to keep the twins connected - even though the odds were stacked very much against them ever meeting again.

You can also see a write up of it here.

Yeah I saw this - great doc - there is another thread somewhere.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

my wife and I got to thinking that maybe there is a higher power of some sort, as fate seemed to intervene to keep the twins connected

There isn't. HTH.

 

[winifred]

Yeah I saw this - great doc - there is another thread somewhere.

I did a quick search beforehand and couldn't find anything related to this dcoumentary - otherwise I would have posted within a related thread.

What's really freaky is that both adoptive parents had dressed them in virtually identical dresses when going in to finalise the adoption paperwork, and should have missed each other as they were due to go in within different time slots. It was only by a stroke of luck that the initial adoptive parents had to stay longer due to a technicality.

 

[winifred]

There isn't. HTH.

I'm not talking "higher power" as in some sort of omnipotent god figure. More like there's a predetermined plan which goes beyond our level of human understanding.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

More like there's a predetermined plan which goes beyond our level of human understanding.

No, there isn't one of those, either. Well, there certainly isn't a plan. Determinism is a reasonable position, but a fairly trivial and uninteresting one.

 

[alsoknownas]

Noticed co-incidence. The (presumably thousands) of separated twins that don't have any re-connective threads in their life go by unnoticed by you. The two that do have a documentary made about the story - and you get to see it.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Noticed co-incidence. The (presumably thousands) of separated twins that don't have any re-connective threads in their life go by unnoticed by you. The two that do have a documentary made about the story - and you get to see it.

For a while I've wanted to make a list of coincidences that you never noticed because they never happened, as a counter to the "but it can't just be coincidence!" argument that crops up in many different debates.

Anyway, back to the thread - thanks for the recommendation, will put it on my Big List of Things To Watch

 

[Yetman]

No, there isn't one of those, either. Well, there certainly isn't a plan. Determinism is a reasonable position, but a fairly trivial and uninteresting one.

In 250 years from now, the Earth is in peril, a time machine has been invented and scientists now need to work out what to change in the past in order to positively effect the future with as little unintentional change as possible. To do this they run a series of 10,000 simulations of the universe from the big bang to the present day, in each simulation, the humans and all other life think they are as real as the scientists performing the experiment. They live day to day, as we do, albeit in a speeded up simulation, each with a slight difference early on in human history - when they get to the (then) present day, the scientists can work out which change they should make and its impact before going back and making it. We are currently living in one of those simulations.

That's a deterministic, reasonable, and quite interesting possibility, don't you agree?

 

[Maurice Picarda]

It's an amusing thought experiment but it's hardly reasonable: you need time travel, the ability to simulate all possibly relevant factors, and the assumption that duration is not a relevant factor. The middle one is the toughie, as ever - once we allow omniscience as a theoretical possibility, it's not all that surprising that omniscience about time t implies the same about t1.

 

[Idaho]

Has anybody seen the documentary Twin Sisters: A World Apart? I chanced upon it recently whilst scanning through bbc iplayer, and would highly recommend it as a fascinating and emotive bit of viewing.

It's a remarkable story about two identical twins who get separated as babies, and go on to lead very different lives - one in Norway and the other in California. Having watched it, my wife and I got to thinking that maybe there is a higher power of some sort, as fate seemed to intervene to keep the twins connected - even though the odds were stacked very much against them ever meeting again.

You can also see a write up of it here.

If one were to be a rationalist, one would say that you are showing hindsight bias. That as you know that they get reunited, you see all events leading to that as guided or inevitable in some way.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Actually, I think Yetman needs a felicific calculus as well.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Having watched it, my wife and I got to thinking that maybe there is a higher power of some sort, as fate seemed to intervene to keep the twins connected - even though the odds were stacked very much against them ever meeting again.

Confirmation bias. Had they not remained connected, there would have been no documentary.

 

[blossie33]

I watched it at the weekend - fascinating.
An amazing coincidence that they ever found out.
I wonder why the Chinese authorities didn't want to admit they were twins - I assume they obviously knew?

 

[Yetman]

Actually, I think Yetman needs a felicific calculus as well.

I've never heard of that before. Just checked it and the man who invented it is my wifes great great great grandfather...... the odds of such a thing and the attention to coincidences that certain fringe 'philosophers' advocate suggests I am correct and we are indeed living in a simulation

 

[Maurice Picarda]

I've never heard of that before. Just checked it and the man who invented it is my wifes great great great grandfather...... the odds of such a thing and the attention to coincidences that certain fringe 'philosophers' advocate suggests I am correct and we are indeed living in a simulation

Your relative is mummified and on display in a London university? That must rankle.

 

[Yetman]

Your relative is mummified and on display in a London university? That must rankle.

Yep. I have a picture of him, in the box, in my house. Rankles my tits off mate

 

[winifred]

Noticed co-incidence. The (presumably thousands) of separated twins that don't have any re-connective threads in their life go by unnoticed by you. The two that do have a documentary made about the story - and you get to see it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at by mentioning "noticed co-incidence"? Just because there are a large number of separated twins who no doubt go unnoticed in the world, doesn't diminish the fact that the documentary appeared to show up a number of coincidences that were truly unbelievable.

 

[winifred]

For a while I've wanted to make a list of coincidences that you never noticed because they never happened, as a counter to the "but it can't just be coincidence!" argument that crops up in many different debates.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here?

Anyway, back to the thread - thanks for the recommendation, will put it on my Big List of Things To Watch

You're welcome

PS. I'm not ashamed to say that I was nearly in tears at times when watching the documentary.

 

[winifred]

In 250 years from now, the Earth is in peril... *snip*

That's a deterministic, reasonable, and quite interesting possibility, don't you agree?

I'd go as far as to that it's an interesting *albeit highly improbable* theory.

 

[winifred]

If one were to be a rationalist, one would say that you are showing hindsight bias. That as you know that they get reunited, you see all events leading to that as guided or inevitable in some way.

I don't believe that hindsight bias relates to the interpretation that you've given. Instead, it relates to... when, after viewing the outcome of a potentially unforeseeable event, a person believes he or she "knew it all along"

I had no preconceived ideas about how the the twins might end up reconnecting with one another, so on that basis hindsight bias doesn't really come into it.

 

[winifred]

Confirmation bias. Had they not remained connected, there would have been no documentary.

Again, I had no preconceptions or any kind of hypotheses about how the twins would reconnect, so confirmation bias also doesn't come into it. I made the connections during and after watching the documentary i.e. that there were so many amazing coincidences to just put it down to pure chance.

 

[winifred]

I watched it at the weekend - fascinating.
An amazing coincidence that they ever found out.

I agree. And it obviously opened me up to the possibility of a greater force at play, hence all the speculative discussion within this thread.

I wonder why the Chinese authorities didn't want to admit they were twins - I assume they obviously knew?

I guess it depends on how they categorise each child who's up for adoption i.e. they may not necessarily link together and/or identify "twins" within the official paperwork.

 

[winifred]

No, there isn't one of those, either. Well, there certainly isn't a plan. Determinism is a reasonable position, but a fairly trivial and uninteresting one.

Your words seem to come with such certainty and conviction... but how could you possibly be so sure? Also, I'm not sure that I would describe my thoughts/theories as relating to determinism per se, as it encompasses a specific type of doctrine = prescriptive. As I posted before, the observed events might actually represent something that "goes beyond our level of human understanding"

 

[winifred]

[edited - entered in error]

 

[alsoknownas]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at by mentioning "noticed co-incidence"? Just because there are a large number of separated twins who no doubt go unnoticed in the world, doesn't diminish the fact that the documentary appeared to show up a number of coincidences that were truly unbelievable.

Coincidences aren't unbelievable at all - they're supposed to happen. If something is a one-in-a-million chance it doesn't mean it will never happen. In fact if there are more than a million opportunities for the 'coincidence' to occur, then it's more likely that it will happen than not.
I say 'noticed' because there are millions of non-coincidentally linked twin sets out there that have not been 'noticed' by you (or I), and that skew your perception of the significance of the coincidences. There are approx 100 million twins in the world (conservative estimate - twin births are increasing quite rapidly!), and of the ones who have been separated at birth, you're only ever going to read an article or watch a film about the relatively few (the statistical outliers) who had some kind of connective coincidental happenings.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Your words seem to come with such certainty and conviction... but how could you possibly be so sure?

Faith, Winifred, faith.

 

[Lord Camomile]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here?

That, as others have said, you only notice coincidences because they happen, and there are plenty of events and occurrences that we might call coincidence were they to happen, but they never did so we don't notice them. alsoknownas puts it better...

Coincidences aren't unbelievable at all - they're supposed to happen. If something is a one-in-a-million chance it doesn't mean it will never happen. In fact if there are more than a million opportunities for the 'coincidence' to occur, then it's more likely that it will happen than not.
I say 'noticed' because there are millions of non-coincidentally linked twin sets out there that have not been 'noticed' by you (or I), and that skew your perception of the significance of the coincidences. There are approx 100 million twins in the world (conservative estimate - twin births are increasing quite rapidly!), and of the ones who have been separated at birth, you're only ever going to read an article or watch a film about the relatively few (the statistical outliers) who had some kind of connective coincidental happenings.

All those twins separated at birth never had the requisite coincidences happen to make their stories 'interesting' enough to notice and make a documentary about.

 

[winifred]

*snip* In fact if there are more than a million opportunities for the 'coincidence' to occur, then it's more likely that it will happen than not.

Yes, I see your point now.

*snip* ...you're only ever going to read an article or watch a film about the relatively few (the statistical outliers) who had some kind of connective coincidental happenings.

That's also true but as I said in my previous post, "the documentary appeared to show up a number of coincidences that were truly unbelievable". Having two separate adoptive parents buying almost identical dresses, which is what supposedly drew their attention to each others babies, is a really freaky coincidence.

I guess that at the end of the day anything that appears 'extraordinary' can always receive some kind of logical explanation. It'd just be a shame if we really did discount or miss out on something that was unique and genuinely beyond our normal understanding, by virtue of it being just that.

 

[Lord Camomile]

I've watched it now, and where before I was thinking there was a whole series of coincidences it was really just the one: the fact the Norwegian couple were delayed and the dresses (so two, combined into one, if you're being charitable). That's not even worthy of this conversation!

What were the other "number of coincidences that were truly unbelievable"?!