I'm not defending anything - just saying people using this for political point scoring is pretty distasteful.
Tweets from ex-Mayor of Lambeth mock ‘hairy arabs, Muslim women and big black men’
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editor
hiraethified
It is a political matter.
Leighsw2
strictly off the record
Isn't that the problem - you don't really know anything about Lambeth Labour do you? Or the way that a factional right-wing group called Progress has taken over the council and turned it into a municipal version of the East German Communist Party (except without the Marxism-Leninism). That an individual like Philip Normal can be passported through to become a councillor and then mayor (after only two years in office!) while dedicated community representatives like Rachel Heywood are hounded out, tells it's own story (if you're interested in learning.)
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
The thread bump I was referring to was this one, where a dodgy old thread from 2008 got dug up this week, presumably to continue an argument happening on another thread.
As to politics being a dirty business - well, obviously, yes, but at the same time we do need to have some kind of an ethical framework for how we engage with it, because if we had no kind of guiding moral principles whatsoever then we'd all just end up in the Labour Party, possibly even as councillors. I suppose one comparison in terms of this kind of ambivalence is when fascists get sent to prison - I'm not going to start a "free the National Action political prisoners" campaign and I may well take the odd bit of schadenfreude in it, but I wouldn't try to claim it as a great victory and I certainly wouldn't call for the police to be given more resources to prosecute domestic extremists or whatever. Obviously there's a fair bit of difference between those two situations, but I think they're both ones where there's a bit more going on that just "it's good when people I don't like get in trouble."
If he was getting in trouble for being part of the electable face of neoliberalism in Lambeth, and if that made it likely that his replacement would be any different, then I'd feel a fair bit more straightforwardly about it, and I suppose "I think this person should be getting in trouble for being a neoliberal centrist arsehole in 2021 rather than for being an edgelord dickhead in 2009" might seem like a bit of a peculiar principle to assert but I think it's a worthwhile one.
As for Darren Grimes, I think that's a bit different in that people aren't condemning him for things he said 10+ years ago so much as they're a) taking the piss out of him for whatever shit he's said this week and b) taking the piss out of him because Penis Balls said his cousin caught him having a crafty wank once. I won't try to take a moral high ground and claim I didn't laugh at any of the craftywank stuff, but fwiw it doesn't seem particularly ethically great either?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Ex Cllr Rachel was all over the local news. I can't really understand how you know nothing about it.
You say you don't know anything about Lambeth Labour factional politics then you say some posters here are coming from a Corbynite point of view. Which pre supposes you have an understanding of Labour factional politics.
Setting aside the factional stuff, I think it’s important to remember that Normal’s consistently been acerbic and dismissive of others when confronted with his own failings, whether in his political or business career: his lies about Save Nour, which he refused to back down from, were absolutely vile and ripping off his t-shirt designers, which he appears to have done regularly, is inexcusable. I know the tweets are old, but the lack of judgment or empathy in them absolutely reflects the way he’s behaved more recently. Lambeth deserves better and there should be no mixed feelings about his departure.
In terms of the local Labour party, I think there needs to be serious questions asked about why someone who so manifestly lacked the judgment or character to represent the community was screened so poorly. Ed Davie said that it would have taken too long to find old tweets; it took me five minutes to unearth a bunch of antisemitic ones. I think questions about the scrutiny applied to Labour members whose views line up with the Council, and those who don’t agree with them, are entirely valid: I know what my suspicions are about how all of this happened, and the likelihood of lessons genuinely being learned.
In terms of the local Labour party, I think there needs to be serious questions asked about why someone who so manifestly lacked the judgment or character to represent the community was screened so poorly. Ed Davie said that it would have taken too long to find old tweets; it took me five minutes to unearth a bunch of antisemitic ones. I think questions about the scrutiny applied to Labour members whose views line up with the Council, and those who don’t agree with them, are entirely valid: I know what my suspicions are about how all of this happened, and the likelihood of lessons genuinely being learned.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
On being "factional".
To put matters straight I'm not in the Labour party. I know people who are. I got on well with my Ward Cllr Rachel Heywood. Who I dealt with over housing matters. I had a lot of respect for her even if I didn't always agree with her politics.
She started as Cllr under Uber Blairite Steve Reed. She never Imo was factional. She went along with the Blairite project as it was getting things done in its early period.
It was later that she started to be uncomfortable with how the New Labour Council was going. They have had a very long period in power.
I think she felt they were losing touch with residents.
The specifics of Lambeth is that the Labour Council became entrenched in power. The supposedly independent Council officers at top level became part of the the New Labour ( Well by this time New in Blairite sense but old in years in power)
Residents started to oppose some of the "New" Labour actions. Well organised campaigns around Library closures, threat to Brixton Rec and Estate "Regeneration".
The response of the Labour Group for example was to accuse residents at Cressingham Gardens ( Council Estate the Council wanted to "regenerate") of intimidating others. This was a slur and had no evidence. Yet this was repeatedly said. My point is that this isn't all about ideological differences its about how Labour led Lambeth Council operated on personal level. In case of Cressingham not a political argument but attempt to discredit personally residents who organised against a Council policy that affected them.
Putting it in local context of Lambeth I don't think those who aren't happy with how this long standing Labour Council operate can be accused of just being Corbynite factionalists.
Some of us residents are willing to work with the Council. But Imo its become increasingly difficult. This isn't all about political factionalism.
To put matters straight I'm not in the Labour party. I know people who are. I got on well with my Ward Cllr Rachel Heywood. Who I dealt with over housing matters. I had a lot of respect for her even if I didn't always agree with her politics.
She started as Cllr under Uber Blairite Steve Reed. She never Imo was factional. She went along with the Blairite project as it was getting things done in its early period.
It was later that she started to be uncomfortable with how the New Labour Council was going. They have had a very long period in power.
I think she felt they were losing touch with residents.
The specifics of Lambeth is that the Labour Council became entrenched in power. The supposedly independent Council officers at top level became part of the the New Labour ( Well by this time New in Blairite sense but old in years in power)
Residents started to oppose some of the "New" Labour actions. Well organised campaigns around Library closures, threat to Brixton Rec and Estate "Regeneration".
The response of the Labour Group for example was to accuse residents at Cressingham Gardens ( Council Estate the Council wanted to "regenerate") of intimidating others. This was a slur and had no evidence. Yet this was repeatedly said. My point is that this isn't all about ideological differences its about how Labour led Lambeth Council operated on personal level. In case of Cressingham not a political argument but attempt to discredit personally residents who organised against a Council policy that affected them.
Putting it in local context of Lambeth I don't think those who aren't happy with how this long standing Labour Council operate can be accused of just being Corbynite factionalists.
Some of us residents are willing to work with the Council. But Imo its become increasingly difficult. This isn't all about political factionalism.
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cuppa tee
Well-Known Member
...correct me if I am wrong but iirc she landed in deep shit when she sided with the residents that opposed the LJ road closures and that was when things got properly messy for her.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Partly.
The way this longstanding Labour Council operates is that the leadership with a few top Council officials decide policy. " Sofa" government. This gets transmitted down to Ward Cllrs who are supposed to support and sell it to residents.
Top down.
Cllr Rachel started to stop doing this. So started to get in trouble.
Reminds me of a journalist who told me it was impossible to get a Ward Cllr to comment on issue in their Ward. One would be referred to Lambeth Comms dept. Ward Cllrs were told what to say.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I think it was the libraries that finally got her in deep shit.
The road closures was a bit different. Seeing a Community Hall of Council tenants from the Loughborough Estate shouting at top Labour Cllrs meant that the Council backed down on the unpopular Road closures. They could not blame that all on Rachel. The Council estate residents ran a well organised campaign on that. Whether one supports it or not.
cuppa tee
Well-Known Member
...thanks for the clarication
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I've been working today. Been long day. This article incensed me.
Pink news to their credit asked Lambeth council their view
Reason that Normal got to be Cllr was that he didn't report his tweets. According to Council.
So this is going to be the Lambeth New Labour line. If only they had known.
Such a load of bollox.
Philip Normal is in Progress. That's why he got shoe in as Cllr.
This kind of Lambeth Orwellian speak does my head in.
www.pinknews.co.uk
Pink news to their credit asked Lambeth council their view
Reason that Normal got to be Cllr was that he didn't report his tweets. According to Council.
So this is going to be the Lambeth New Labour line. If only they had known.
Such a load of bollox.
Philip Normal is in Progress. That's why he got shoe in as Cllr.
This kind of Lambeth Orwellian speak does my head in.
Labour blames Philip Normal for not 'declaring' racist, transphobic tweets
Embattled British councillor Philip Normal 'did not declare' the litany of 'racist and transphobic' tweets that prompted his downfall.
www.pinknews.co.uk
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Leighsw2
strictly off the record
Absolutely agree with this. When Labour took power in 2006 (against the run of elections elsewhere in that electoral cycle) they replaced a Lib-Dem/Tory administration and had a fairly broad-based Labour Group that started off with some good things (estate regeneration, children's centres, a youth violence strategy). It also helped that they faced a significant LibDem-Tory opposition group on the council. But after 2014 (and the collapse of the LibDems) Labour faced no opposition and Progress / 'Oval Labour' tightened their grip over the Labour Group instituting what effectively is a party dictatorship, forcing out those councillors with more independent minds and voices. It's not a coincidence that Normal was a councillor for Oval ward.
The only challenge that Progress have faced in this time was when the Corbynite left (temporarily) took over the Dulwich and West Norwood and Streatham Constituency Labour Parties. But, thanks to their stranglehold over the local Campaign Forums (aided by the regional bureaucracy) the Right managed to maintain their control over the selection of council candidates, effectively excluding anyone from the Left.
We can only hope that there is a strong showing by the Greens in the May elections - I suspect that only if their majority was significantly reduced would Labour start trying to reconnect with residents.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I've heard that people are leaving the party now Starmer has made clear what his intentions are.
I'm thinking of voting Green at the election that is coming soon. Not that I'm that Green but they are the most likely to get seats. And have done a good job trying to hold Council to account over Estate regeneration etc.
To re connect with residents wouldn't be that difficult if the the Council changed its accustomed way of working.
One would be to have genuine consultation instead of the kind of consultation that now takes place.
The usual practise is for the Council to decide what what it wants to happen and "fit" consultation to arrive at already decided option. Or consult and agree then ignore it. As it case of planning guidelines for Hondo Towers. This was example of how a New Labour Council thinks working with property developers is progressive.
There are numerous examples.
Ones that I was personally involved in was the LJ Masterplan and Brixton Masterplan.
LJ Masterplan ending up in long war of attrition with Council over doctored consultation findings. After months of arguement Council had to say they were a mistake.
On Brixton Masterplan and Brixton SPD. Brixton SPD had consultation, final officer report dropped in demolishing the Rec. This had not been consulted and caused uproar. Council had to back down.
I saw what happened over the LJ Road closures. Caused massive upset amongst the Loughborough Estate residents. This showed the lack of relationship between the Labour party and the working class. It's simply not embedded in a working class community like Loughborough estate. Cllr Rachel told me once the party membership was so low in Coldharbour Ward that it was difficult at times to fill posts. This a poor Ward with large working class. So road closures were viewed as "them" imposing it on "us".
The usual way the long time Councillors deal with this to tell people who question Council is that they aren't representative or are not being sensible. The "same old faces" as one of my Cllr likes to say.
It ends up with people getting really angry. As case of libraries where Council had to have police in attendance at Council meetings.
I totally sympathise with residents. I've had it up to here with being told I'm not representative or I'm not "sensible" Merely for attending consultation, reading up reports and questioning Council.
There are other ways of doing things. The Preston Model is one. Cllrs supporting residents is another - which is why Cllr Rachel got in trouble.
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editor
hiraethified
Which parts are you finding to be untrue in that tweet?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
The fact is that has has been previously posted someone who was put forward by local Labour Party members to be a candidate for Cllr was refused by LCF due to historic social media criticising this Council actions.
Yet Philip Normal appears to have got through easily to stand as a Cllr.
Kind of suggests that this Lambeth Council has a lot to do in its own backyard to make the Council inclusive.
editor
hiraethified
Labour at it again
insidecroydon.com
No apology from candidate for abusive and homophobic tweets
CROYDON LABOUR IN CRISIS: Slack diligence by the Local Campaign Forum missed vile racial slurs, sexist language and homophobic abuse on a wannabe councillor’s social media account. EXCLUSIVE …
insidecroydon.com
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editor
hiraethified
Sorry, I meant to say 'Labour.' I'll edit it.
editor
hiraethified
'coon' isn't just an archaic racist term as inside croydon seem to think it is, it's modern slang used by some black people to disparage other black people who suck up to white power - still less than ideal, but it does change the meaning of a lot of the stuff they're reporting. The homophobic stuff is from when he was 18 and is teenage nonsense as far as I can see.
editor
hiraethified
Oh, that's OK then.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Reading the Inside Croydon article and it's same issues as with Lambeth
The local campaign forum is run by the right of the party. If you're considered to be safe pair of hands politically you get selected with little scrutiny.
In this case Inside Croydon (allege) that some in local party were aware of the tweets. The candidate got rid of their social media account. But not quick enough.
If however your on the left of party you tweets are gone through with fine tooth comb and your expelled from party.
insidecroydon.com
The local campaign forum is run by the right of the party. If you're considered to be safe pair of hands politically you get selected with little scrutiny.
In this case Inside Croydon (allege) that some in local party were aware of the tweets. The candidate got rid of their social media account. But not quick enough.
If however your on the left of party you tweets are gone through with fine tooth comb and your expelled from party.
Labour centrists expel veteran Croydon campaigner White
CROYDON LABOUR IN CRISIS: A former Labour member of the GLC and long-time activist in Croydon Central who did much to get Sarah Jones elected to parliament has been kicked out of the party because …
insidecroydon.com
