Travelling from the UK to the USA with a criminal record

[shannon1967]

hi everyone, I don't wish to annoy people with asking the same question, but everyones cases are slightly different , so this is why so many people post about it . I have been reading with interest , and just wanted ask an honest opinion . I got arrested in 1989/90 for shoplifting , it went to a small magistrates court and I had to pay a fine . I cant even remember the exact year but I know I was 17 at the time , I am now nearly 42. and I have booked to go to new York in September . I have never been arrested since , this is the only stupid crime I committed. I read a post on here that mentioned some exclusions in the crimes of moral turpitude , so I looked on the us state web page and I found this

U.S. Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual Volume 9 Visas
9 FAM 40.21(a) Notes Page 1 of 26
9 FAM 40.21(a) NOTES (CT:VISA-1810; 02-23-2012) (Office of Origin: CA/VO/L/R)
9 FAM 40.21(a) N1 APPLYING INA 212(a)(2)(A)(i)(I)
9 FAM 40.21(a) N1.1 Determining Ineligibility (CT:VISA-1318; 09-24-2009)
When adjudicating a visa application for an applicant whom you (consular officer) have reason to believe has committed a crime involving moral turpitude, the officer must determine whether:
(1) The offense was purely political (see 9 FAM 40.21(a) N10);
(2) The offense committed involves moral turpitude (see 9 FAM 40.21(a) N2);
(3) The applicant has been convicted (see 9 FAM 40.21(a) N3); and
(4) The applicant has admitted or may admit that he or she has committed acts which constitute the essential elements of a crime (see 9 FAM 40.21(a) N5).
9 FAM 40.21(a) N1.2 Exceptions to Ineligibility (CT:VISA-1738; 10-06-2011)
Certain statutory exceptions may prevent a determination of ineligibility by reason of a conviction for a crime involving moral turpitude. These exceptions relate to:
(1) Crimes committed prior to age 18 (see 9 FAM 40.21(a) N8 and N9); or
(2) Certain purely political offenses and convictions.

I am not very good at understanding the terminology, but does this mean that because I committed the crime under 18 I am ok ? I am probably not that lucky, but I would really like your honest opinions please . sorry for the repeat question )

 

[Onket]

Just don't fucking tell them. That's it.

 

[ddraig]

init!
why is your case different shannon? why do you think the answer will be different to someone who has committed a more heinous and more recent crime?
why do you think they'd have a record?

 

[shannon1967]

Im not making light of my crime at all, im just interested in peoples opinions of the clause that mentions being under 18 , I was under 18 so I am unsure whether or not to declare it and apply for a visa , or just do the esta and not mention it due to me being under 18 at the time?

 

[ddraig]

sorry, not saying you were making light of it. my opinion that it is/was a lot lighter than some crimes others have posted
good luck

 

[Onket]

Im not making light of my crime at all, im just interested in peoples opinions of the clause that mentions being under 18 , I was under 18 so I am unsure whether or not to declare it and apply for a visa , or just do the esta and not mention it due to me being under 18 at the time?

Don't declare it because the only way they will know is by you telling them.

 

[shannon1967]

ddraig,when you say, why do I think they have a record? I don't know who you mean ? do you mean the us or uk police? this is why I am asking, will it flag up when my finger prints are scanned when I enter America ? I know they are repeat questions, but there is such mixed opinions, and some real scaremongering posts

 

[shannon1967]

thanks Onket , so there is no way it will come up at us customs?

 

[ddraig]

i meant the us
there are far more knowledgeable than me on this thread that know and have experience of travelling back and fro to the states. most of these trusted posters say to not declare it

 

[trashpony]

ddraig,when you say, why do I think they have a record? I don't know who you mean ? do you mean the us or uk police? this is why I am asking, will it flag up when my finger prints are scanned when I enter America ? I know they are repeat questions, but there is such mixed opinions, and some real scaremongering posts

Scaremongering is exactly what they are.

No, it will not flag up when your dabs are taken when you enter the US. The US do not have access to the UK criminal database. Your prints may not even been on file any more. Just tick the no box on the ESTA

 

[shannon1967]

thanks trashpony, I honestly am very naïve about all this kind of stuff, I thought though they would keep my fingerprints forever. is it possible then that they might not have them anymore. do they only keep them for a certain amount of time ?

 

[trashpony]

thanks trashpony, I honestly am very naïve about all this kind of stuff, I thought though they would keep my fingerprints forever. is it possible then that they might not have them anymore. do they only keep them for a certain amount of time ?

I don't know if my fingerprints are on file in the UK but I do know that I've been convicted of a crime in the UK and been fingerprinted. I've also been back and forth to the US numerous times and had my fingerprints taken on entering and never had any issue.

 

[Onket]

thanks trashpony, I honestly am very naïve about all this kind of stuff, I thought though they would keep my fingerprints forever. is it possible then that they might not have them anymore. do they only keep them for a certain amount of time ?

Even if they are still on file in the UK, we are talking about the US, here.

The US have not got info about your record. Do not tell them about it. if you tell them about it they will have info about your record.

 

[shannon1967]

I do appreciate all your help and I understand you saying not to mention it , but the part I really wanted to know was whether or not those clauses, due to me being under 18 , mean I am not lying anyway by putting no?

U.S. Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual Volume 9 Visas
9 FAM 40.21(a) Notes Page 1 of 26
9 FAM 40.21(a) NOTES (CT:VISA-1810; 02-23-2012) (Office of Origin: CA/VO/L/R)
9 FAM 40.21(a) N1 APPLYING INA 212(a)(2)(A)(i)(I)
9 FAM 40.21(a) N1.1 Determining Ineligibility (CT:VISA-1318; 09-24-2009)
When adjudicating a visa application for an applicant whom you (consular officer) have reason to believe has committed a crime involving moral turpitude, the officer must determine whether:
(1) The offense was purely political (see 9 FAM 40.21(a) N10);
(2) The offense committed involves moral turpitude (see 9 FAM 40.21(a) N2);
(3) The applicant has been convicted (see 9 FAM 40.21(a) N3); and
(4) The applicant has admitted or may admit that he or she has committed acts which constitute the essential elements of a crime (see 9 FAM 40.21(a) N5).
9 FAM 40.21(a) N1.2 Exceptions to Ineligibility (CT:VISA-1738; 10-06-2011)
Certain statutory exceptions may prevent a determination of ineligibility by reason of a conviction for a crime involving moral turpitude. These exceptions relate to:
(1) Crimes committed prior to age 18 (see 9 FAM 40.21(a) N8 and N9); or
(2) Certain purely political offenses and convictions.

I wondered if I am just clutching at straws or whether Im not doing anything wrong by not declaring it anyway due to my age at the time ?

 

[ddraig]

course your doing something technically wrong by not declaring it
2 choices as told to you over and over, there are no specialist lawyers here just people who have direct experience

1. tell the truth and not be able to go
2. don't let them know and be able to go

YOU decide

 

[1927]

just to reiterate this point,'

the us, does not have access to every single persons criminal record in the world. what kind of fuck off database would that require?

There was some item on BBC yesterday totally unrelated, that stated that there are 9 million people in UK with some sort if record. The databases referred to able state that only 150000 records have been added to the list that is shared with USA. Now I am quite convinced that I am not one of the 150000 top crims in the country who's record has been disclosed.

Just go on holiday and keep quiet, unless you are a murderer or terrorist I'm sure you'll all be fine.

 

[wanizame]

sorry so many disagree on what are basically fact based evidence, i'm pointing out the possible, not saying it will happen, but if you need to be contentious on other people's issues, feel free. I state this from history, knowledge and the fact of getting a ten year visa which was an expensive tiresome piece of work.

 

[wanizame]

IT'S JUST LUCK OF THE DRAW: if biometrics match your records and your dabs are in the system, it's a one to however many of random bad luck, they do keep them, despite other people not liking a fact based and not subjective post about this,(see my earlier post) and if it happens, you're already out of luck, been there, done that, spent two hours in CBP, if the red card goes to your file on entry, be honest, denial will see you deported> I've never failed to sit in CBP and see someone deported, despite a visa. sponsorship and rights to and working in the US, I was held at each time and point of entry because i'm flagged as having an arrest record...in the US, civil protest is allowed and discounted from turpitude, Im a human rights campaign worker, but i expect this to happen because record sharing does exist, say what you will, but the only cards i'm showing you are the ones that exist..and that includes record sharing. Like i already said, i flew for years before this became an issue. Every time i enter the damn country now is sheafs of paperwork. Minor offences should not show...only stress if you need an ACPO which is usually around work and culpability

 

[wanizame]

what a load of shite, sorry.

Moody, facts are actually facts..not trying to be scaremongerer but neither am i trying to be irresponsible, the facts of record sharing do exist and advice, for me, consists of the fact that most people won't take the advice you give them, but will stop short of being arrested for ignoring words of 'you may want to look into this; caution> It's a forum, i'm relating my experience, it won't be everyones: Shannon, you should have gotten a PM, records for minors are wiped...no show

 

[trashpony]

Your link refers to immigration and asylum requests, not people going on holiday to Disneyland for two weeks. That's what this thread's about. Applying for residence is a totally different thing - I've never bothered applying because I'm fairly sure I wouldn't get it

 

[Onket]

Minor offences should not show...

This is the key bit, and what 90% of posters on the thread are talking about.

 

[RedDragon]

 

[wanizame]

This is the key bit, and what 90% of posters on the thread are talking about.

I agree, i'm not aiming for scaremonger, just highlighting that if you have 'moral turpitude' (what kinda phrase is that anyhow, spare me from anyone who doesn't), then you may need a visa, otherwise fly and don't say anything

 

[wanizame]

Your link refers to immigration and asylum requests, not people going on holiday to Disneyland for two weeks. That's what this thread's about. Applying for residence is a totally different thing - I've never bothered applying because I'm fairly sure I wouldn't get it

and i get the link to asylum/immigration requests, but the important bit was 'may contain policing'. It's how i got stopped after four years of travelling, the bastards started record sharing of 'troublesome, repeat travellers or people who're linked to lawbreaking in both countries': I quote my CBP officer...

 

[wanizame]

and i get the link to asylum/immigration requests, but the important bit was 'may contain policing'. It's how i got stopped after four years of travelling, the bastards started record sharing of 'troublesome, repeat travellers or people who're linked to lawbreaking in both countries': I quote my CBP officer...

but i'm also going to say that my record was breach of the peace, twice, in ten years: (i learnt how to not get arrested or charged in human rights work eventually) and that's the basis i spent two hours in CBP and far too much time and money in the Belfast embassy on for a visa, I flew on VWP for years....it's luck of the draw, i think the only reason i got admitted eventually was the fact that my org would have made it much messier in PR if i didn't, if the argument wasn't enshrined in the US constitution that protest is a civil legal factor....i'm pretty sure i'd be learning humility in sufficient levels somewhere under the command of someone's government and right to capture! but BOTP was my initial refusal which is not turpitude and means those with higher arrest factors may face issues.but 10 years after the fact of last arrest, i got red carded....do not lie, i said yes, minor issues ( BOTP does not fall under turpitude, sweaty streamin down back whilst holdin best poker card face) i have seen so many people leave in shackles, and yes, they shackle, it's fuckin horrendous to watch and you're held in a public pen of plastic seats, no armrests, no restroon and a big red file to hold conspicuously with an open jury of TSA until you've sweated enough, but your charges will be dictated to the hearing of all the people sweating their ass off on brilliant orange designed to ergonomically funnel sweat straight down your back chairs...and wait. Despite a visa and work, i now do this every time i fly, i go to CBP i'm sure it's designed to upset> Or maybe i have conspiracy theories. that it surfaced ten years after the fact and got me that lovely few hours each time i enter is more alarming...thus the digging into how that became available

 

[wanizame]

So, summary, if you need an ACPO, the ESTA isn't going to be useful....and yes they do check ESTA now,not comprehensive, it's advance tick box summary of all flying...but if you're in Interpol, you might want to get the train....

 

[wanizame]

I don't know if my fingerprints are on file in the UK but I do know that I've been convicted of a crime in the UK and been fingerprinted. I've also been back and forth to the US numerous times and had my fingerprints taken on entering and never had any issue.

i worked for the federal gov (US 501c) and they didn't only take fingerprints, they take full palm, fingers, ear and facial scans, eye biometrics n all. i waited three months for federal clearance, thus i appreciate the irony of needing a visa even though i have federal level clearance! and i still had to jump through quite a few hoops... if you don't fall under turpitude, its just bad luck and you might need to be prepared for random strike, but Onket, Trashpony yeah you're right i was applying for a work/ H visa which is much tighter on checks

 

[wanizame]

James, if you have already booked your holiday you are a bit fucked really. If you apply for a visa with a drugs conviction you are more than likely going to be turned down. Whilst you may not technically be eligible foe a nests or the visa waiver program it I s really your only option now. Like all the advice in this thread has stated if you don't tell them how are they going to found out? You state that you went to USA last year, did you have your conviction then?

As for the links from Wanizame above, have you tried reading them? The information in the links don't back up his comments and IMHO do not change any of the advice here to go to USA and keep Schtum!

1927, there would be no substantial link to his comments given that i'm not masculine...:0P

 

[wanizame]

Fez

He's going to work in the USA. It's not just a holiday. He'll need a social security number and whatever else. And for that they need a J-1 visa. And the J-1 visa requires an ACPO cert, which shows any criminal convictions. He's have already seen his ACPO cert as her got it done himselves and it said, "no live trace" which means there is an expired caution. The US embassy will know this, and they will ask to see the Subject Access Report so they can judge exactly how serious the caution is, and then make a decision on that.

fez is right, work visas, residence and subject access requests are much tighter, i spent a lot of money and time to get in including a 72 hour 2000 dollar round trip from DC to Belfast and then Scotland waiting on my visa being couriered back and that was after four weeks of paperwork... and back again, following getting stopped on entry first time in 2009 (having flown since 2005) and advised that a visa was the only way back in; to agree, the J1 does require an ACPO if you've been arrested: if this is an issue, you may need to reconsider how honest you need to be. No live trace simply states that you don't have a current flag, not that you have no issues: It won't be the case for everyone, but I had to fly and reapply every six months for a year until they were confident I was compliant and not 'seeking entry by other means'...but my record is common law breach of the peace and not turpitude, so the question became what are they sharing....

 

[wanizame]

crap, as in restrained, choices of bad words... most people don't get this bit, it's have you been arrested or convicted, not whether it concerns turpitude