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the neoliberal vision of the future

I think I'm getting my head around what's going on here. David Irving uses the "not planned" (incidentalist? is that a word?) arguments in order to rescue Hitler's reputation. I think that would be a fairly uncontroversial assessment. Onar is coming at it from a different angle, what he's doing isn't quite the same as Irving, though I'd be very surprised if Irving wasn't the source of the arguments, either directly or indirectly. Onar doesn't claim that this means Hitler wasn't objectively evil, quite the reverse. He's claiming that he was objectively, though not subjectively, evil. Whether that's as bad, worse or not as bad is a different matter. He's doing this because if he were to admit that extermination was a part of Hitler's plan, stemming from his political ideology and deliberately intrinsic to his preferred form of governance, then he'd have to accept that there is a clear and fundamental difference between social democracy/socialism/welfarism, etc. and Nazism/Fascism. This would mean that he wouldn't be able to paint everyone who wasn't an Onan worshiper as a fascist, he wouldn't be able to use it as an emotional argument. He wouldn't be able to claim that it was Hitler's "socialism" that led to the atrocities. It may not be as dangerous as what Irving does but it's just as dishonest.
 
I could argue the neoliberal stance insofar as I'm familiar with it but it would be a bit disingenuous since I don't actually believe it myself. ;)

I couldn't because I think it is incoherent, and Onar here is a perfect example of its incoherence – I've fired a fair few questions his way and he has been unable to answer them. He makes basic mistakes right at the beginning regarding the individual and her relationship to the collective, the nature of ownership, and so on, so everything he says after that is worthless.

The only intellectually honest argument in favour of any kind of neoliberalism is that you think it is good and right that the rich should be allowed to get richer, and who cares about the rest of us.
 
Oh and while it isn't as vomit-inducing as his statements about the Holocaust, it's clear from his web-site that he's also some sort of global warming contrarian too. I'm dependent on Google translate but key phrases from the US right's lexicon appear clearly enough.

"Hockey stick is junk science" etc.

He's written a book on it.

Looks like a vanity publisher, though. ;)
 
It does seem to be pathological, this kind of thinking. Just as psychosis tends to take the same forms – invisible rays and the like – so this kind of political 'libertarianism' seems to always come fully fitted with all the standard idiocies.

I get the feeling that Onar may be "working for the Yankee dollar".
 
I couldn't because I think it is incoherent, and Onar here is a perfect example of its incoherence – I've fired a fair few questions his way and he has been unable to answer them. He makes basic mistakes right at the beginning regarding the individual and her relationship to the collective, the nature of ownership, and so on, so everything he says after that is worthless.

Unable to answer them, or unwilling. Hard to say. You'd think his group would at least try to answer objections to the starting premises in their introductory pamphlet or something.
 
Oh, unable, for sure. If he thought he could answer them, don't you think someone with such a monstrous ego would not delight in doing so? At length.
 
I get the feeling that Onar may be "working for the Yankee dollar".

If he isn't I do wonder how he can afford to spend all his life on the internet writing blog posts and bravely facing down "fascists". Unless, of course he's relying on the socialist/communist/fascist welfare state for a living.
 
What would be the point while you're all way more interested in even the vaugest sniff of holocaust denial?

I'm not interested in his putative "holocaust denial" qua "holocaust denial". I'm interested in his revisionism with reference to established history toward an Irvingite thesis. Recorded history, from multiple and ideologically-opposed sources, doesn't bear it out.
 
There was this only t'other day in Der Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,755385-5,00.html
The transcripts contain comprehensive details about the exterminations, including the mass shootings, the killings with carbon monoxide in specially prepared trucks, and the later disinterment and incineration of the bodies as part of "Operation 1005," with which the SS sought to eliminate the traces of the Holocaust starting in 1943.

Hardly any soldier says that he was directly involved, but many talk about what they saw or heard. The accounts are often astonishingly detailed and, in any case, much more precise than the information German investigators could later glean from witness testimony. In April 1945, Major General Walter Bruns describes what happened during a typical "Jew operation" he witnessed.
 
I couldn't because I think it is incoherent, and Onar here is a perfect example of its incoherence – I've fired a fair few questions his way and he has been unable to answer them. He makes basic mistakes right at the beginning regarding the individual and her relationship to the collective, the nature of ownership, and so on, so everything he says after that is worthless.

The only intellectually honest argument in favour of any kind of neoliberalism is that you think it is good and right that the rich should be allowed to get richer, and who cares about the rest of us.

Yup, meritocracy (for a given value of merit - ie ability to extract capital) is at least coherent.
 
Ok, devil's advocate hat on here. Why should someone be forced to pay for another person's cancer treatment?

There are plenty of reasons why you might want to pay into a common pot for when such eventualities happen to a member of the group, but there's still a legitimate question there.

Fair enough, but the corollary to your question is that if you're not compelled through taxation to "pay for another person's cancer treatment", then surely that gives those that do pay into a common pot an imperative to exclude you from benefitting from the common pot?

As I said much earlier in the thread, you hear a lot of whining about not paying, but the same people who whine about paying taxes would whine even louder if excluded from the roads those taxes pay for, the hospitals those taxes pay for, the results of the governance those taxes fund.
 
Oh, unable, for sure. If he thought he could answer them, don't you think someone with such a monstrous ego would not delight in doing so? At length.

If he's playing to his own little crowd then he might prefer to avoid such nuance in favour of demonstrating to the dwindling faithful that 'these fascists can't HANDLE the TRUTH!!'.

That's just a guess, obv. It may just be a case of being 'too far down the rabbit hole'.
 
Fair enough, but the corollary to your question is that if you're not compelled through taxation to "pay for another person's cancer treatment", then surely that gives those that do pay into a common pot an imperative to exclude you from benefitting from the common pot?

Yes - agree totally.
 
classic internet loon trajectory from 'communism is facism' to excusing mass murder and onto holocaust denial- with filler inbetween.
 
This is getting pretty ridiculous! I was making a benign and completely uncontroversial statement about WWII and all of a sudden I've got the whole hornets' nest over me! What's wrong with you people? If you ask ANY historian on WWII (and no I don't mean David Irving) about the physical evidence for the deliberate, intentional industrial killing of the Jews you will get the same answer: it doesn't exist. The mainstream will say that it doesn't exist because the Nazis successfully managed to destroy all the evidence, all gas chambers, all documents etc. before the allies rolled in. I don't see why I should document this with academic references when this is in no way controversial.

Notice that there is ample physical evidence that a HUGE amount of Jews died in the concentration camps, but as far as I know NOT from gassing or other deliberate industrial killing. Again, this doesn't mean that there was no gas chambers or no gassing, only that the physical evidence for it is absent.

Apparently I have to stand on trial for something you have conjured in your imagination about my views on this subject. Therefore I will make very explicit my views so that there can be no misunderstanding. Were a huge number of innocent Jews rounded up in concentration camps by the Nazis? Yes. Did a huge number of them die? Yes. Were the Nazis responsible for their deaths? Absolutely. Was this evil? Indeed. Are there any circumstances that in any way reduces the evilness or responsibility of the Nazis for these deaths? Absolutely not.

Does it matter whether these Jews were killed in gas chambers or "just" died of starvation, disease or freezing? Not to me. The Nazis are just as evil and responsible in either case. Stalin starved millions of innocent Ukrainians to death in the 1930s and the fact that they died of hunger rather than of a bullet or gas in no way reduces the evilness of Stalin. Quite the contrary.

So, then the million dollar question: were the Jews gassed to death? If I were a prosecutor in the case against the Nazis in a trial, I would prosecute them for killing the Jews, but I would recognize that the lack of evidence would make it hard to convict the Nazis on the account of gassing. This does not mean that the gassing did not take place, only that it would be a gamble in a court of law to try to have them convicted for this.

I find it disturbing that the people who agree with Hitler on 95% of the issue seems to predicate their evaluation of Hitler on whether he gassed the Jews or not. Let's for a second imagine (purely hypothetical, guys, no need for alarm) that new evidence came to light that decisively proved that there were no gas chambers and that the vast majority of jews died from starvation and disease. Would this change your view of the Nazis? Would you then say "oh, since he didn't actually deliberately gas them to death he was not really that bad a guy"? I bloody well hope not!

I believe that the reason the Nazis created such a trauma in the European psyche is because Germany wasn't a third world country filled with illiterates. Germany was the land of philosophers and poets and the book "Mein Kampf" was a massive bestseller in that country. What Europe finds so scary is the fact that it wasn't dumb brutes that embraced Nazism. It was the intellectuals, the university students, the well-educated.

I think that the Nazis provided Europe with a glimpse of an extremely disturbing truth: the Germans were civilized, they were educated, they were socially concerned. They were like the rest of Europe. And it ended up with death and destruction on a massive scale. If that could happen in Germany there is no reason why it couldn't happen in any other European country. It made Europeans ask themselves for a fraction of a second: "are we the baddies?" And that is a very, very good question.

I use to say that a Nazi is nothing other than a really, really, really angry and hateful social democrat. Special circumstances (WWI, a major depression) lead the Germans down the path of Nazism. Up until recently Europe has only seen happy times since WWII. But what if those times are changing? What if we've entered a depression that is equal in size of the 30s? What if Europe all of a sudden is facing many extremely challenging problems simultaneously such as abysmall birth rates, a huge debt crisis, a welfare state in crisis, massive immigration problems, possibly a bit of peak oil and possibly an emerging islamofascism in the Middle East? How will all those fat'n happy social democrats then react and behave? I'm not sure, but I must admit that I really don't want to experience the answer.
 
Nice try, Onan, but how about those references? You say one can ask any historian about the lack of physical evidence and they will concur, so it really ought not be difficult for you to drag out one simple fucking reference.
 
There is physical evidence. Not only that, but the Nazis didn't finish the job. They left behind witnesses. Are you really going to sit here and say that you entertain the possibility that Primo Levi, Jean Amery, and many thousands of others are all liars?
 
There is physical evidence. Not only that, but the Nazis didn't finish the job. They left behind witnesses. Are you really going to sit here and say that you entertain the possibility that Primo Levi, Jean Amery, and many thousands of others are all liars?

Hunger can do strange things to your mind..... /Onan
 
I'm surprised that he went down this route without mentioning the Auschwitz 'swimming pool' and orchestra first. Irving lost his libel case 10 years ago after getting ripped to shreds by Robert Jan van Pelt amongst others. Why loons like this think they can do any better with the same old regurgitated nonsense is anybody's guess. Transcripts here

http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/transcripts
 
<snip> I don't see why I should document this with academic references when this is in no way controversial.<snip>

Might not be controverial among far-right loons like you, but it's really quite controversial here and from what I understand, in academic circles as well.

I'm guessing, with VP, that you've looked for references to support your wild claims and only found dodgy characters like Irving, Fred Leuchter, Rudolf et. al.

So now you're trying to act all butt-hurt and fannying about refusing to produce sources. Your credibility is so far down the toilet by now it's hardly worth the effort I guess.
 
If you ask ANY historian on WWII (and no I don't mean David Irving) about the physical evidence for the deliberate, intentional industrial killing of the Jews you will get the same answer: it doesn't exist.

Just spoke to this bloke:

WilliamShirer3.jpg


he says you are wrong
 
Testimony of SS-UnterscharfŸhrer Schluch, In the Belzec-Oberhauser trial.
Quoted in "BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard Death Camps", Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 70-71:

After leaving the undressing barracks, I had to show the Jews the way to the gas chambers. I believe that when I showed the Jews the way they were convinced that they were really going to the baths. After the Jews entered the gas chambers, the doors were closed by Hackenholt himself or by the Ukrainians subordinated to him. Then Hackenholt switched on the engine which supplied the gas...

I could see that the lips and tips of the noses were a bluish color. Some of them had their closed, other's eyes rolled. The bodies were dragged out of the gas chambers and inspected by a dentist, who removed finger rings and gold teeth...
 
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