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The Islamic state

coley said:
Time they were 'unlisted' then.
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be careful - PKK might be the good guys in this particular fight, and 'we' might have a great deal of sympathy for the idea of a Kurdish homeland, but not only is the PKK not the Kurdish nation, but my enemy's enemy is not always my friend.

taking groups who would otherwise fit the 'Terrorist' bill off the list because we happen to find their aims acceptable, or their existence temporarily convenient, is a very sure way of ensuring blowback - if we do it, others will do the same, and we won't like the groups they do it for.

if the PKK are not a terrorist group by any reasonable definition, then fine - but don't do it just because they aren't IS or Turkey.
 
butchersapron said:
This might cause a few problems - according to rudaw, turkey to allow their peshmerga-commerical mates passage through to Kobane.
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what's the problem?

I don't understand (care much?) about the internecine squabbles of the various groups, but would have thought that if yesterdays airdrop to YPG in Kobane came from KRG stocks, and that this apparent safe-conduct has been arranged by both the YPG and the KRG, then they would have to have some kind of reasonable working relationship?

or is this about village Napoleans making big statements about unity and solidatity but not being able to work with others in practice?
 
kebabking said:
be careful - PKK might be the good guys in this particular fight, and 'we' might have a great deal of sympathy for the idea of a Kurdish homeland, but not only is the PKK not the Kurdish nation, but my enemy's enemy is not always my friend.

taking groups who would otherwise fit the 'Terrorist' bill off the list because we happen to find their aims acceptable, or their existence temporarily convenient, is a very sure way of ensuring blowback - if we do it, others will do the same, and we won't like the groups they do it for.

if the PKK are not a terrorist group by any reasonable definition, then fine - but don't do it just because they aren't IS or Turkey.
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TBH I was always a bit leery of the PKK being branded a terrorist organisation, TAK,on the other hand clearly is, if the PKK was to distance itself from them then I see no reason why they should remain listed.
Israel could then take their place!
 
kebabking said:
what's the problem?

I don't understand (care much?) about the internecine squabbles of the various groups, but would have thought that if yesterdays airdrop to YPG in Kobane came from KRG stocks, and that this apparent safe-conduct has been arranged by both the YPG and the KRG, then they would have to have some kind of reasonable working relationship?

or is this about village Napoleans making big statements about unity and solidatity but not being able to work with others in practice?
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It's precisely the internecine squabbles that have potential to go very wrong - Barzani's lot and the PKK simply do not trust each other (see their long history of killing each other). There was already suspicion on the side of the latter that Barzani - in turkey's pocket - was waiting till the last possible moment (or even the moment of greatest danger) to offer real practical help in return for political recognition/representation on the governing committees of the cantons - when they have no support in them. On top of that, the growing popularity of the PKK in Barzani's home turf is going to have him worried - a few cock ups blamed on non-state running amateurs might help. In fact, the existence of the canton's worries and threatens barzani full stop.

This is, of course, just speculation, but speculation based on real history and real enduring interests. There has been some limited co-operation (see the operation around sinjar and the offensive into but limited is the key word.

edit: just to clarify further - i'm not saying the reported co-operation is a bad thing, but that it's worth keeping an eye on what cans of worms it may open.
 
cheers.

so local thobbers being more-interested-in-being-the-big-fish-in-a-small-pond-than-seeing-the-big-picture kind of thing?

is there one side more guilty of this not-unprecedented phenomenon, or is there plenty of blame to go around?
 
kebabking said:
cheers.

so local thobbers being more-interested-in-being-the-big-fish-in-a-small-pond-than-seeing-the-big-picture kind of thing?

is there one side more guilty of this not-unprecedented phenomenon, or is there plenty of blame to go around?
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Blood on everyone's hands - going back as long as is politically rememberable - hence the potential to go pear shaped when competing medium-longer term (political-economic) interests take over from immediate short term (political-military) interests. But, you know, we've been hearing about everything having changed now so let's see. I'm particularly interested in seeing what happens if the PKK decide to get shooty towards the Iraqi kurds - are the democratic structures and networks of accountability we are told about going to be able to hold them back, or are the PKK's arms simply going to weigh more. If the latter then these are not the places building towards participatory freedom we have been told they are.
 
oh joy...

butchersapron said:
...I'm particularly interested in seeing what happens if the PKK decide to get shooty towards the Iraqi kurds...
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are they really that stupid/myopic? I know that grudges occur and squabbles are generated by the friction of operating together and the politics of divvying up resources, but would they be actually stupid enough to start internal conflict when IS is at the door?

surely they have some understanding of both the military effect this would have, and the political/diplomatic effect on the way the Kurds are seen by the outside world?
 
butchersapron said:
This might cause a few problems - according to rudaw, turkey to allow their peshmerga-commerical mates passage through to Kobane.
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The BBC version of this story is confusingly worded....implying that Turkey somehow controls the northern Iraq/Syria border.
Turkey will allow Iraqi Kurdish fighters to cross the Syrian border to fight Islamic State (IS) militants in Kobane, its foreign minister says.

Until now Turkey has refused to allow Kurdish fighters to cross into Syria.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29685830
 
butchersapron said:
This from euronews is supposed to show Kobane yesterday:



The YPG and the FSA today agreed on further and expanded co-operation - and importantly included area outside of the three autonomous cantons - i.e the rest of revolutionary Syria. One of the previous stalling blocks for this was turkish support for pretty much all the syrian rebels - some sort of agreement over this has clearly been reached.

And just one more - this opne on what Kobane means as regards the cantons and their prospects as well as potential impact on iraqi kurdistan - and the potential relations the international left may have with these developments. I suspect many won't read past the 2nd para, but there is really good info and analysis below it even if you disagree with the opening remarks

Kobani: What’s in a name?
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that last link isn't working- it just goes to an academia. edu portals support page? just me?
 
TomUS said:
The BBC version of this story is confusingly worded....implying that Turkey somehow controls the northern Iraq/Syria border.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29685830
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It does control - or as best it can - a border 900km long and with 1.5million refugees living on/around it. It has let non-kurdish anti-regime groups move arms across and recruit in these camps - but it has done it's best to limit any similar kurdish movement - at least on the syria part. What the BBC story is missing is just who the kurds they will now allow over actually are. The rudaw story says peshmerga rather than PKK related people,
 
kebabking said:
oh joy...



are they really that stupid/myopic? I know that grudges occur and squabbles are generated by the friction of operating together and the politics of divvying up resources, but would they be actually stupid enough to start internal conflict when IS is at the door?

surely they have some understanding of both the military effect this would have, and the political/diplomatic effect on the way the Kurds are seen by the outside world?
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Historically yes - they have been that stupid.
 
Their was a joke God got tired of everyone else killing Kurds and thought it was fun to let them kill each other.
Sadddam funded one bunch of Kurds iran and Syria other groups Turkey didn't have a proxy force in the fight.
 
butchersapron said:
Historically yes - they have been that stupid.
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so the greatest ally the surrounding countries have in keeping the Kurds from amassing enough force/diplomacy to really push for a solution is, err... the Kurds?

is there not a 'banging head against a brick wall' smilie?
 
Another ISIS offensive around mt Sinjar now - suspect this may just be diversionary. Car bombs still going off in Shiite areas of Baghdad to stoke the tension and keep the sectarian angle bubbling.
 
Casually Red said:
also illustrates how deeply infiltrated the moderate rebel groups are
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Not really no. IS could easily be in Turkey on their own account and if you read the article it sounds like they are. Locals have informed/complained to the police but nothing has been done. There have already been reports of Turkey offering material assistance to IS and also medical facilities. Doubtless there is infiltration but if you read around it looks like the infiltration may be a two-way thing.
 
Peshmerga commanders don't seem to want to go to kobane- see ISIS offensive in sinjar today for why. Semi-official position as told to AJ by peshmerga is no decision has been made over whether to use the offer or not. (AJ reported as fact that ISIS had taken kobane over a week ago - so usual caveats apply).

Oh yeah, attack via roadside bomb on peshmerga boss today as well.
 
Saw this story yesterday on Twitter and at least one person thought it might not be an 'accident'. Now appears that the Iranians don't buy that one either

Iranian broadcaster raises suspicions about death of reporter on Syrian border

A journalist working for Press TV on the Turkish-Syrian border was killed on Sunday in what are claimed to be suspicious circumstances.

Serena Shim was reported to have died in a car accident while returning to her hotel in Turkey after leaving the strategically important Syrian town of Kobani.

She was a passenger in a car that collided with a truck. But Press TV, an Iranian broadcaster, does not accept that it was an accident.

Her death occurred the day after she broadcast an item - as shown in the clip above - in which she said the Turkish intelligence agency had threatened her and accused her of spying.

She had reported that Islamic State militants had crossed from Turkey into Syria on trucks bearing the symbols of the World Food Organisation and other NGOs.
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Last edited:
butchersapron said:
Anyone get these pics to work?
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I can on the forces.tv site, but not if I copy them on to here.

the first piccie they show, the one mentioning two craters in the top, shows bombing effects - the large crater on the far left looks like a single 2000lb weapon - clean crater, with lots of damage to structures all around the impact, the second crater, perhaps 200m further right, looks like two 500lb class weapons that have detonated within a meter or so of each other, though not immediately one of after the other. there's some other crater-like impacts in the general area, they look to be a collection of smaller munitions and munitions that exploded above the ground.

if you flick between the before and after images a couple of times the effect is pretty remarkable.
 
kebabking said:
I can on the forces.tv site, but not if I copy them on to here.

the first piccie they show, the one mentioning two craters in the top, shows bombing effects - the large crater on the far left looks like a single 2000lb weapon - clean crater, with lots of damage to structures all around the impact, the second crater, perhaps 200m further right, looks like two 500lb class weapons that have detonated within a meter or so of each other, though not immediately one of after the other. there's some other crater-like impacts in the general area, they look to be a collection of smaller munitions and munitions that exploded above the ground.

if you flick between the before and after images a couple of times the effect is pretty remarkable.
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Ta.
 
How many kurdish journalists did the Turkish state kill in the 90s one way or another (encouraging internal feuds/criminals/fascists)? Ex mayor of surac (town on turkish side of border with kobane) and kid shot yesterday.
 
Reporters Without Boarders put the number at 20, 9 of which happened in 92 source above link
Several of the slain journalists had written about purported connections between a "counter-guerrilla" force or a Hezbullah group and Turkish security forces.

Many were shot in the back - sometimes with one bullet to the back of the head - by unknown assailants.

Emma Sinclair-Webb, senior Turkey researcher of Human Rights Watch, said in 2012 "old laws that curtail investigations into serious human rights abuses in Turkey have allowed the security forces and public officials to get away with murder and torture"
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