The Islamic state
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
It's their attitude that bothers me.
All this outrage and fury directed at IS, accompanied by relatively little criticism of Britain's leading role in devastating Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya... you don't need me to list them all. That really is a rampage of wanton aggression that has few parallels in human history. One might have hoped for a more aggrieved response from those in whose name these crimes have been perpetrated.
God knows Turkey's role in all this has been less than honorable. But at least the Turkish people are willing to accept millions of refugees without complaint. To hear the Brits whinge on about a few thousand of their victims inconveniencing their holiday plans by blocking the Chunnel is frankly disgusting.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
It's a totally disgusting moralistic and delusional blanket statement condemning 60 million people! Ridiculous and laughable if it wasn't so offensive.
And he also presumably writes off the entire population of the US and other countries (basically everyone in the world) and at various other times in history for other events and wars conducted by States.
And people wonder why the radical left generally isn't taken seriously by most people.
And he also presumably writes off the entire population of the US and other countries (basically everyone in the world) and at various other times in history for other events and wars conducted by States.
And people wonder why the radical left generally isn't taken seriously by most people.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Where on earth do you get the 'relatively little criticism' thing from? There's been years of it from numerous political angles, it all sorts of circles, not just radical ones. If you mean this thread, that's because it's discussing IS, not the British State.
For one thing, the Brits continue to elect war criminals to high office.
This looks rather bad from the perspective of those who they bomb.
Your problem is failure to grasp the concept of criticism en masse.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
This must leave you in a very shit place politically, as basically you've written nearly everyone in the world off as complicit in some kind of war crime. Well, either that or some kind of innocent victim deserving of pity from western white lefties who can't do anything to change the situation anyway.
Not everyone in the world lives in the West.
As I said earlier, it's the attitude that bothers me. To allow one's government to murder millions is one thing--perhaps there's a case for claiming an incapacity to prevent it. However to complain when the survivors ask for succor is quite another thing, morally speaking. A far worse thing.
You're going to have to walk me through your logic there.
What I'm saying is that there is a huge difference in scale between the crimes of al-Baghdadi and those of D. Cameron. And yet most of the moralistic rancor from the Brits is directed against the former. That indicates a serious problem with the British public's ethical comprehension.
Of course. But the existence of individuals who deplore their government's behavior doesn't exempt the British from criticism en masse.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Collective blame is generally speaking a bad idea
Do you think the citizens of a democracy can be absolved of their government's behavior?
It's not that every single British person is guilty. But the fact that elected governments can do what they have done with so little opposition does indicate a serious problem with British culture and society considered as a whole, or en masse. If I had to be specific I'd say that problem was racism.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Only 1 in,4 voted for the tories.
Yup, collective guilt is a pretty wretched concept and simply doesn't exist.
Phil, you've been a lot better then this of late. You drunk? Angry and lashing out? Or just bored?
Very few British people have any idea of the consequences of British foreign policy for the peoples of the Islamic world.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
No, but plenty of non-Western countries are engaged in both the struggle against IS, and also lots of other wars/military conflicts that you probably disapprove off, so you've written them off as guilty/complicit/to blame as well by your logic.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Who are you talking about when you say the british?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
But despite this you condemn them as guilty? Of something you now say they don't know about? Huh? Pre-thought crime maybe?
I can see both sides of this one tbh.
Let's Godwinize the matter. Of course it would be silly to blame the Germans for Hitler. But it would be equally silly to say that Hitler's success had nothing to do with German culture or society.
There's no doubt that, viewed from the outside, the British public's indifference and/or collusion with their criminal government looks morally culpable. I understand that it looks different from the inside, especially when all one's mates are active in the anti-war movement etc. It's a tricky one for sure.
Sometimes. Why would you ask?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Cos it seems like you've got a serious case of simplifying categories and looking at them as 'others', and that comes across in your thing about going on about 'British' people (as well as other countries and populations). And I wondered if that was easier to have from a distance.
But then where does one stop?
One might blame only those who voted for Blair and/or Cameron. But then there are many such who did so for other reasons and who oppose their foreign policy. One might blame only politicians. But then there are many politicians who bravely speak out against the wars. One might blame only the soldiers who actually fight the wars. But then there are many such who joined up out of economic necessity. And so forth.
Surely someone must be to blame?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Ah, that's the issue really. Moralism. What about power? Surely that's more important? The moralism card is just bullshit.
And you're going on about blame? WTF? How useful is that politically? Not at all I'd say.
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