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The (Amir, Asif, Butt) Spot Fixing Trial

kabbes said:
What can you actually prove Higgins was conspiring to do, though? He can't be defrauding the ones who want the match fixed, because you can't legally contract to do something illegal, hence no fraud is involved.
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he's defrauding bookmakers who take bets on snooker matches. Simples. I mean in this case there was no defrauding of the match fixers - they did exactly what they were paid to do.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
The case for which these three were convicted was a hoax! By the very same newspaper, in fact.
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They got caught by a hoax undercover NoW reporter. But only because Majeed got greedy and tried to make money twice off the same bit of match fixing. From what I can tell the Indians were already on board with the gambling fraud on those no balls before NoW stung them.
 
N1 Buoy said:
They got caught by a hoax undercover NoW reporter. But only because Majeed got greedy and tried to make money twice off the same bit of match fixing. From what I can tell the Indians were already on board with the gambling fraud on those no balls before NoW stung them.
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Ah ok, I stand corrected. So if it had just been the NoW case, it wouldn't have gone to court. I see. I got that bit wrong.
 
kabbes said:
No he isn't, because he didn't actually fix anything.

And please don't say "simples". It ruins my faith in humanity.
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He conspired to. But anyway, it looks like I got it wrong and that a case based just on the entrapment would not have made it to court.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
He conspired to. But anyway, it looks like I got it wrong and that a case based just on the entrapment would not have made it to court.
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He said he didn't conspire to, though. He said he was lying.

I know that neither of us believes him but, to quote Tom Cruise in my 15 year-old self's favourite film A Few Good Men, "It doesn't matter what I believe, it only matter what I can prove!"
 
kabbes said:
He said he didn't conspire to, though. He said he was lying.

I know that neither of us believes him but, to quote Tom Cruise in my 15 year-old self's favourite film A Few Good Men, "It doesn't matter what I believe, it only matter what I can prove!"
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Fair enough. I still think it was a total disgrace that he wasn't kicked out of snooker. He flew all the way to Kiev just to lie to someone about match fixing. Sir James of the Hill.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Fair enough. I still think it was a total disgrace that he wasn't kicked out of snooker. He flew all the way to Kiev just to lie to someone about match fixing. Sir James of the Hill.
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Oh yeah, I think he should have been kicked out of the game. I don't think the same standards of "no reasonable doubt" apply there -- you're talking about issues of professionalism.
 
Let it not be said that we do not take the gentlemans sport of cricket seriously. Do not mess with the fairness of the flannelled game!!
 
N1 Buoy said:
They got caught by a hoax undercover NoW reporter. But only because Majeed got greedy and tried to make money twice off the same bit of match fixing. From what I can tell the Indians were already on board with the gambling fraud on those no balls before NoW stung them.
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And yet the 'victims' of the crime haven't been identified. And if they were, they would be people who would have been defrauded whilst committing a criminal act themselves. Still sounds as if jail was the only option for all (the sheff weds players were jailed in the 60s?). The judge said he was only sentencing based on the trial rather than his belief it wasn't an isolated incident.

As for feeling pressure to act, there are loads of examples of sport resulting in violence - Frank Warren getting shot, Escobar getting killed.. - for people to reasonably be able to claim pressure (including Higgins). Surprised in a way Amir was jailed given threats were made to his family according to tthe ACSU and the judge?
 
The victims are those who innocently bet on something that turned out to be crooked.

I'm not particularly wedded to that position myself, but that's the argument.
 
kabbes said:
The victims are those who innocently bet on something that turned out to be crooked.

I'm not particularly wedded to that position myself, but that's the argument.
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Er, no - I think the argument also extends to people who pay for a sky subscription to watch fixed games, buy £60 tickets for lords, etc. i think the betting fraternity was down the list of 'victims' tbh
 
gabi said:
Er, no - I think the argument also extends to people who pay for a sky subscription to watch fixed games, buy £60 tickets for lords, etc. i think the betting fraternity was down the list of 'victims' tbh
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But in the eyes of the law the gamblers were the 'victims' as they suffered a direct material loss as a result.
 
So did the people who paid £60+ to go to Lords that day. There's a contract when you buy that ticket - that you'll see a fairly fought contest.
 
I agree :D I was there that day and we had tickets that cost £95 each :eek: we got them cheaper on ebay though. We were in the grandstand and me and my mate both remarked on how far Amir's foot was over the line for his (later proved dodgy) no ball

I was just stating the legal position regarding the victims and the crimes
 
The ticket you bought was effectively a contract. You are also a victim of this nonsense. I assume that also formed part of the legal argument.

That entire tour was very very fishy from vague memory. Even after the sting, odd things were happening.
 
The 'usual' erratic Pakistani fielding. Some 'poor' batting. I dunno. I agree with you now gabi, Pakistan need to be thrown out entirely.
 
gabi said:
The ticket you bought was effectively a contract. You are also a victim of this nonsense. I assume that also formed part of the legal argument.

That entire tour was very very fishy from vague memory. Even after the sting, odd things were happening.
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Odd things were happening before that test series too. That Sydney test loss was one biggest odd things I've seen. Hopefully someone will spill the beans on that one in the future, but I won't hold my breath.
 
It appears the Pakistan management team whistleblower didn't know Amir was involved and Asif and Amir didn't know each other was involved? He's got to have been naive to even think about texting his bank details..

ETA: And Butt has coughed?
 
I feel sorry for amir. He should never have been sent to prison IMO. From a selfish point of view I feel robbed of the enjoyment of a great talent. And all for a couple of grand. He fucked himself up for nothing. :(
 
Interesting article by Rashid Latif http://www.dawn.com/2012/03/28/just-how-innocent-is-mohammad-aamir.html

Amir claimed in the interview with Sky Sports that since he hardly ever over-stepped in his career, therefore, he had to practise it hard before doing it in the Lord’s Test. He was right, because in his first six Test matches he bowled only two no-balls collectively. Later, between the above mentioned Australia Test and the Lord’s outing, he again remained steady and went over the popping crease only five times in six Test matches.​
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Only twice in his 14-Test career, Amir’s over-stepping was glaring —against Australia in 2009 and against England in 2010. So no points for guessing why ‘Ali’ and Mazhar Majeed could blackmail Amir on something which had previously happened between them on the Australian trip.​
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I can even say this much that all three were aware of the truth and there was evidence in the form of text messages between them too, so Amir got frazzled and delivered the no-balls on their instructions.​
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