the american way...

[fela fan]

They told us they had to invade iraq to get rid of Saddam Hussein coz he was a threat to world peace coz of his stockpiles of WMD, and coz he was being nasty to his own people.

So what happens is that they invade, find no weapons, capture Hussein, the evil dictator, alive, but meanwhile blast thousands of civilians lives into nothing.

Saddam alive, the people dead. And the people continuing to be killed every day.

This is what they do. In influencing just who it is they want leading countries of political interest to them, under those leaders, the people get repressed, sometimes losing a popular democracy in the process.

When that leader starts to disobey their US masters, then the US go in, get him alive, but murder thousands of civilians.

Truly the most barbaric country in the world. Not only do they kill their own civilians, but they butcher hundreds of thousands, nay, millions, of civilians from outside of their country.

This is the only true threat to our world in this new century. This current regime have become emboldened by 60 years of invasions. They now do what they want, ripping up laws and treaties.

 

[El Jugador]

Sad but true fela fan

I doubt if anything will change until the majority of the American population see and fully understand the harm that their leaders are causing to the world. And that will not happen for as long as the information they recieve is so overtly controlled by these same leaders.

Even if they knew the truth, they'd be hard pushed to believe it, for all the horror that it entails - it is easier to continue believing (against all evidence) that America stands for freedom, truth and justice.

Britain is just as bad, going to the lengths she has to maintain this 'special relationship'.

The time has never been more appropriate for the people of Britain and America to retake control of their governments' policies, actions and armies, and put an end to the terrible wrongs that have been committed in the name of their nations' interests.

The oil wil run out one day anyway, but the hatred and enmity caused by its pursuit will last for many many generations more.

 

[Jangla]

The oil wil run out one day anyway, but the hatred and enmity caused by its pursuit will last for many many generations more.

Hilariously, though, the USG's official line on this is that the oil fields are actually replenishing themselves! Phew, glad they sorted that one out!
I think with the US being the size it is, it's much more difficult to propogate an idea right through the minds of the entire population. Take (as a rather light weight comparison) the music charts - very difficult to break because you have so many people to convince spread across such a huge country. The same applies for any meme (haven't used that word in ages but seen it mentioned several times on here in the last week!) - the more minds it needs to reach to achieve it's goal, the more difficult it becomes to successfully propogate the meme. Add to this the nature of the government (obstructive, destructive and generally of the opinion that every other non-US human on the planet is a second class citizen) and you have a recipe for disaster.

You would have thought they would learn something from their previous mistakes.

 

[mr_eko]

fela the history of man is written in blood. This is not an American ting it's a human trait we love killing each other it's the only way we've got for settling arguments once and for all. Go back a few years and you could replace America with the British which country in the world given the option hasn't/dosen't put it's interests first?

That dosen't mean that I believe a) the americans set out with the intention of killing innocent civilians or b)that the americans are going to install some sort of puppet government in iraq with oil revenues being pumped directly into the federal reserve. After everything that's been said and done they are going to have to allow a proper democracy in iraq otherwise they will be thrown out. It's going to take a while though.

 

[Jangla]

The US woudn't be remotely interested in Iraq if it was devoid of oil, though. To claim their reasons are selfless is to be blind.

 

[fela fan]

fela the history of man is written in blood. This is not an American ting it's a human trait we love killing each other it's the only way we've got for settling arguments once and for all. Go back a few years and you could replace America with the British which country in the world given the option hasn't/dosen't put it's interests first?

Yeah, the history is written in blood. And today it's an american thing.

But i just cannot agree with your next bit about humans loving killing. No fucking way man!

At a guestimate, i'd say in this century over 90% of humans have not killed anyone. This must be recognised by those that put our wars down to 'human nature'. It is NOT human nature to kill. If it was, our global population would be significantly lower than it is.

It is those in power, the leaders, that find it within themselves to obliterate vast tracts of the human population. We jail lone individuals for killing one person, all the while voting in mass killers such as blair and bush.

At this juncture of time, the big fight is between leaders and peoples. Once the peoples of the world unite (via the internet primarily), and realise that irregardless of nationality our common enemy is those in power, and especially the US and UK populations, then peace is a tangible prospect.

Meanwhile it's got to get a lot worse before it gets better. But get better in this new globalised world it must do. The alternative is for us to follow the dinosaurs. And that would be total justice if it happened. But there is one bit in the human psyche that should help us all: we are born survivors.

Let optimism reign, in these depressing days...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The US woudn't be remotely interested in Iraq if it was devoid of oil, though. To claim their reasons are selfless is to be blind.

Why did US soldiers go to Somalia and Beirut?

 

[pbman]

Why did US soldiers go to Somalia and Beirut?

Don't confuse then JC they will just start denying we were ever their, kind of like denying the 9/11 planes existed.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

But i just cannot agree with your next bit about humans loving killing. No fucking way man!

http://www.rawa.org/f-hang1.jpg

http://www.rawa.org/beating.htm

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~mdwatch/images/iran6.jpg

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~mdwatch/images/iran10.jpg

http://www.soundportraits.org/images/execution_tapes-last_public3.jpg

"These eighteen prisoners-of-war now had to stand up, one beside the other, with their faces towards a wooden barracks. The Czech guards and soldiers now beat them on their bare backs with iron bars and rifle butts until they collapsed into bleeding heaps. As the prisoners lay moaning on the ground, the Czechs pulled them up again and threw cold water on them. To this day I still see vividly how the fingers of several prisoners were smashed with heavy cudgel blows. This abuse of unparalleled brutality went on for about two hours, until darkness fell. At that point we were allowed to go, and the unconscious prisoners were dragged into the soldier camp - which was separated from the actual prison camp by a barbed wire fence - and there the beating continued. They could no longer even scream, only whimper. Again they were revived with water, and only then did the Czechs put them out of their misery with a bullet."

http://www.highland.k12.in.us/highland/pages/hs/art/01arthistory/01Caravaggio/judithbeheading.jpg

 

[pbman]

The US woudn't be remotely interested in Iraq if it was devoid of oil, though. To claim their reasons are selfless is to be blind.

And to claim its "all for oil" is equaly blind.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Quite true. It's in a good strategic location, too, and you need somewhere to put troops that's better than SA.

 

[zarathustra]

And to claim its "all for oil" is equaly blind.

Indeed. The whole notion that the invasion as about Bush and his gang robbing those nice lovable Iraqis of their oil in order to fill up all those nasty SUVs is simplistic to say the least. But the simplicity of this common line of argument (an unfortunate product of widespread anti-war sentiment with the concurrent dumbing down of the politics involved?) has played right into the hands of the right in-so-far as it's allowed them to create this crude straw man argument ("the left says it's all for oil, it's not, so don't listen to them") which obscures the very crucial role that control of oil supplies plays in the long term consolidation of American power within the world order. Lack of truth and simplicity do not always go hand in hand.

 

[Jaygo]

Why did US soldiers go to Somalia and Beirut?

Now you have thrown a spanner in the works

 

[vimto]

Does Panama have oil?

I know they've got one fuck off of a canal there that links the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans but whether or not they've got oil I'm not too sure.

I think that Columbia has shit loads mind you

 

[zarathustra]

Now you have thrown a spanner in the works

Because all critics and criticisms of war are one lovely easily-defeated argument primarily put forth by the right-wing media...

 

[vimto]

Now you have thrown a spanner in the works

Hehehe

I love satire me

 

[Jaygo]

Because all critics and criticisms of war are one lovely easily-defeated argument primarily put forth by the right-wing media...

 

[zarathustra]

You said, Now you have thrown a spanner in the works..

Why would that have thrown a spanner in the works unless you're conflating all critics and criticisms of war into one? You're making judgements about certain criticisms of the Iraq war made by certain critics and extrapolating them outward to try and address all criticisms of US foreign policy..

 

[Jaygo]

....conflating all critics and criticisms of war into one? You're making judgements about certain criticisms of the Iraq war made by certain critics and extrapolating them outward to try and address all criticisms of US foreign policy..

fucking hell I said that !!!!

Sorry what I meant was somalia and beruit were not for oil, the leftie types always chant it's for oil.

Same as if anything happens in the world it's always the fault of the USA, UK and Israel according to the left.

 

[zarathustra]

the leftie types always chant it's for oil.

What's for oil? The intervention in Iraq? Or every intervention the US government has made in the last century?

Look, I agree that the 'blood for oil' analysis is simplistic but to attempt to use it as the basis for some crude hatchet job ("if I think this argument is crap, it means your wrong and your views are invalidated!") on some fake homogenous 'leftie' anti-war group is just as simplistic. Simplification happens within widespread political discourse, it's not something you can escape from.

You're buying into just as much as the woman I saw on an anti-war march shouting that supportes of the war were racist.

 

[Jaygo]

er...OK if you say so.

 

[zarathustra]

er...OK if you say so.

Ok, I'll put it another way - why would the question of Somalia throw a spanner in the works? Why do you think people would claim it was 'all about oil' in Somalia?

 

[vimto]

You still haven't addressed my point about the invasion of Panama by the US

What was that all about Jaygo?

 

[zarathustra]

Oil obviously. Duh.

 

[vimto]

Sometimes it takes a wee bit of teasing to get the simplest message over to these people zarathustra.

 

[vimto]

Jaygo

We can talk about the strategic importance of Sudan in relation to US interests next if you want, then we can do likewise on Lebanon if that's okay

Before we get to that stage, how's about your thoughts on the Panama Canal and its importance to US interests?

 

[Jaygo]

Oil obviously. Duh.

See I knew it

 

[zarathustra]

See I knew it

But what about world war II? That wasn't about oil! That puts a spanner in the works! Damn lefties are wrong about everything!

 

[vimto]

I must be on ignore

 

[Barking_Mad]

I must be on ignore

Did anyone hear that? tee hee